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Topic: cabinet drop |
Richard Bradley
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2010 9:29 pm |
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| I would like to understand about the term cabinet drop. Do all older steels have cabinet drop? how do you know you have it and what can be done to correct the problem? |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 1:32 am
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Richard,
There have been many posts on "Cabinet Drop"
I am sure a search will produce answers.
However,a brief description is..........
When Your guitar is in tune and You press a pedal or pedals,knee levers etc, You create additional tension on the strings which causes the cabinet to
flex,This will have the effect of dropping the pitch of certain strings by a varying amount.
Tune up and pick Your E string and note the position of the needle on Your tuner.Now depress A and B pedals and check the position of the needle on the E string.
Forget about cabinet drop unless You can "Hear" the drop.
Best regards
Billy |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 1:41 am
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To quickly check on an E9: pick the E strings (4 and 8 ) only, and hear if they change pitch ever so slightly when you push and release the A+B pedals. If you can hear even the slightest pitch-change on the E strings - which aren't connected to the A+B pedals and shouldn't be affected at all, your PSG has cabinet drop.
All PSGs, old and new, have some degree of cabinet drop - or bodydrop, as their cabinets simply bend ever so slightly as the string-tension changes when pedals are pushed. A (very) few PSG constructions are so strong/rigid that the degree of bodydrop-detuning is too small to be heard - it can only be measured. Such inaudible bodydrop can obviously be ignored, since what matters is what can be heard while playing.
Audible bodydrop can be calculated into the tuning if it isn't too bad, and thereby be "played out". Crowbear presented a tuning-method here on the forum, that I think works reasonably well for most PSGs, a few months ago. Look/search for it.
I prefer PSGs with inaudible bodydrop, so I modify mine to reach that goal. Modified PSGs tend to lose market-value as they're no longer in "original conditions", so to many that's not an option. |
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Jay Jessup
From:
Charlottesville, VA, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 4:41 am
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| And just to add a little more confusion to the discussion, there are those who would argue that it's not always caused solely by the cabinet flexing. Keyhead mounting and design and the design of the changer or other factors can add to this issue in small ways also. Most of what you need to know is already contained in the posts above. I will add that the place it bothers me the most is on the sixth string (assuming you use a plain 6'th) when using the A+F pedal/knee combination. A few manufacturers have a optional device that counteracts this problem. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 5:09 am
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| Jay Jessup wrote: |
| ... there are those who would argue that it's not always caused solely by the cabinet flexing. |
Indeed!
My Dekley S10 originally had no "cabinet drop" as such - its cabinet is too rigid, but it did have the audible detuning normally associated with "cabinet drop" when pedals were pushed.
The changer bended the top-plate where it was mounted, with varying string tension, and the original changer-axle gave along its length too. Have found similar "cabinet drop" behavior related to the changer / changer mounting in the few other PSG brands/models I have tested also, so it is definitely not uncommon. |
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Eddie Lane
From:
Branson, Missouri, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 5:53 am
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| Jay is right on. If you really want to scare yourself, check the 6th string while pressing the 3rd pedal. It will usually move a lot more the 4 and 8. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Jason Hull
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 6:45 pm cabinet drop
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Last edited by Jason Hull on 27 Apr 2012 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 22 Jan 2010 7:04 pm Re: cabinet drop
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| Jason Hull wrote: |
| If it isn't caused by the cabinet flexing, then it isn't "cabinet drop". |
What will you call the same effect caused by a flexing changer-axle then?
I personally think all detuning caused by pedal/lever pulls should be categorized as "cabinet drop", instead of having a different "name" for each "drop"-variant. Usually there's more than one part that "flex" anyway, and the "cabinet" itself may play a more or less significant part. |
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Ulric Utsi-Åhlin
From:
Sweden
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 12:57 am Stipulative definitions...
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Def # 1:flexing from intermittent deformation of
the actual Steel Guitar "body",and that alone,
constitutes "cabinet drop"
Def # 2:any disturbances emanating from problems
inside the Steel Guitar" "cabinet" might be referred
to as...You know...the plot thickens...McUtsi |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 1:59 am Re: cabinet drop
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| Richard Bradley wrote: |
| ...what can be done to correct the problem? |
Richard,
There are lots of opinions on this topic.
My view is that each PSG is a unique instrument and tuning is also unique to each. All the mechanical changes that are involved present a host of possible reasons why. Cabinet drop, hysteresis, temperature, humidity, string guage and age all affect the tuneability of any particular model.
As you read through posts youre bound to find debates on tuning JI or ET. Whatever tuning method you prefer, the adjustment of pedals and levers must coincide with it. In time you will hear what sounds or feels right to you for your guitar. Many will tune the root and fifth strings pretty close to A440 but tune the thirds slightly flat (also referred to as "tuning out the beats"). Study some of the tunings that include +/- cents along with guages of strings to get an idea. When tuning your pedals, cabinet drop is taken into consideration so that if the drop is lets say 10 cents flat, the pedals are tuned so that the chord is in tune with itself, yet all notes are 10 cents flat. This is compensated with the bar when playing, since its just a fraction of a mm to pull the whole chord up to pitch.
Hope this helps.
Clete |
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Jason Hull
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 3:59 am Re: cabinet drop
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Last edited by Jason Hull on 27 Apr 2012 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 4:32 am
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Jason, that's not a good or correct analogy. The "engine" as it relates to the PSG, is the player, and although we can all agree that most problems are somehow connected to the player's ability, or lack of same, to "power the instrument well", the PSG cabinet holds all parts responsible for the "transmission problems" that result in detuning - by most PSG players known as and (IMO correctly) called: "cabinet drop".
That we have to pinpoint, dissect and describe each part/connection that contributes to overall "cabinet drop" before we can start fixing same "cabinet drop" with any degree of success, is clear - no arguing there. Think we can keep the "engine", the player, out of the equation though, as the player can only compensate for weaknesses in the PSG cabinet while playing. |
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Jay Jessup
From:
Charlottesville, VA, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 5:56 am Re: cabinet drop
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| Jason Hull wrote: |
George wrote, "I personally think all detuning caused by pedal/lever pulls should be categorized as "cabinet drop"."
That's like saying your bad transmission is engine trouble. If you can't accurately identify the source of a problem, then you can't fix it. |
Jason, Methinks you are splitting hairs here. E9'th is not a chromatic tuning yet everyone knows what you are talking about when you say it. In the same spirit when you say cabinet drop to a bunch of steelers, everyone knows you are talking about the detuning that happens when you press a pedal and I think that is what Richard was trying to wrap his mind around.  |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 7:26 am
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| Quote: |
| George wrote, "I personally think all detuning caused by pedal/lever pulls should be categorized as "cabinet drop"." |
"Detuning" means -- very simply -- the pitch changes
"Cabinet drop" means -- again, obviously -- pitch changes caused by the cabinet. It is also often called "cabinet deflection".
If we specify CABINET the source of the pitch change should ONLY be the CABINET.
Detuning is a multi-faceted phenomenon, caused by many unrelated factors.
IMHO, it is much more appropriate to refer to the general case where the pitch on a pedal steel changes unintentionally (e.g., on an unaffected string when pedals are pushed) as DETUNING. We all know flexion of the cabinet is one factor but calling all detuning "cabinet drop" may not be the best choice of words. I vote for DETUNING.
Another interesting factor. I have spoken to at least three well respected steel builders who have told me that a pedal steel that doesn't detune doesn't sound good. When the body becomes too rigid the sound becomes 'sterile'.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 8:48 am
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"DETUNING" sounds OK to me. That's what I used to call it before people on this and other forums introduced "cabinet drop" and "body drop" as names for this unwanted behavior.
| Quote: |
| I have spoken to at least three well respected steel builders who have told me that a pedal steel that doesn't detune doesn't sound good. When the body becomes too rigid the sound becomes 'sterile'. |
That's my experience too - I spent 5 years studying this complex behavior before landing on a solution for my PSG that sounded right to my ears.
In the end I coupled a rigid construction to create such a sterile sound and eliminate audible detuning, with a flexing soundboard that adds timbre but does not contribute to detuning. I'm sure not all steelers would like the resulting sound, since it is like listening to a "sterilized" old Dekley (which it is) with added sustain and body-tone. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 9:08 am
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| Larry Bell wrote: |
| I have spoken to at least three well respected steel builders who have told me that a pedal steel that doesn't detune doesn't sound good. When the body becomes too rigid the sound becomes 'sterile'. |
Larry, right on. We should listen to the experienced builders.
Georg, remember I mentioned the word "sterile" in another discussion? Sterile in this sense to me means that all steels end up sounding the same.
Heaven forbid.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jan 2010 9:44 am
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| Bent Romnes wrote: |
Georg, remember I mentioned the word "sterile" in another discussion? Sterile in this sense to me means that all steels end up sounding the same.
Heaven forbid. |
Does the Dekley (mine) you have at your place sound sterile or like any other steel-brand? I don't think so.
My modified Dekley has a more sterile - string only - sound on the attack, and at least as much of that Dekley sound as the one you have, on the trailing, sustained, tones. Construction tuned to my ears, and - thank God - a Dekley doesn't sound like any other steel-brand no matter what is done to it  |
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Jason Hull
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 4:49 am Re: cabinet drop
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Jay Jessup wrote, "Jason, Methinks you are splitting hairs here."
I like splitting hairs; it passes the time. |
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