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Topic: Paul Franklin's "Bar" thoughts..a question |
Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 3:56 pm |
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I appreciated the thoughts Paul shared with us on this topic...but it left me with a question/thought I don't believe I had ever seen addressed on this forum.
The first thing I thought of when Paul said to keep the bar exactly straight when going from fret to fret is "naaaww....I don't buý it." But my thinking was this. Imagine on E9 playing an open G on the third fret. Then, you stay in the G chord by moving the bar to the 6th fret and engaging the A pedal and E-raise knee lever. I have always noticed that there must be a trick to doing this combination of sliding the bar and engaging several raises to make it sound right.
Soooo....my reasoning was that the pros know when and how to start engaging, say, the A-pedal at just the riht time in the slide, and with the right amount of pressure being added to the pedal as they slide the bar up the neck. This is in conjunction with the E-raise also being done at the same time.
OR....the pros are angling the bar as they slide it up the fretboard to keep things sounding in tune.
OR...a combination of both.
Thus my initial reaction of "naaah...that can't be right." But my reasoning is that Paul was not talking about moving the bar and engaging raises/lowers at the same time...rather, I think he was just noting that when you go from, say, open G on the 3rd fret to open A on the 5th fret, that is when you want to ensure you are keeping the bar straight. Right?
And how do you all keep things sounding in tune when making fret changes while engaging raises/lowers and trying to make it sound smoooooth?
Joe |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 4:46 pm
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In my personal experience and from sitting as close as possible to every pro player I could for the last 20 years the bar remains stable and straight. Even when playing slants the bar is slid with no excess movement. I call it fish tailing when I see a player wagging the bar as they slide. It is nothing but a bad habit.
I just about sat on John Hughey's lap when I could get to the station inn gigs and was always amazed by the absolute precision and economy of movement with his left hand.
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Bob |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 6:38 pm
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| Quote: |
| OR....the pros are angling the bar as they slide it up the fretboard to keep things sounding in tune. |
Only in certain rare situations, I think.
| Quote: |
| And how do you all keep things sounding in tune when making fret changes while engaging raises/lowers and trying to make it sound smoooooth? |
You need to make sure your pedals are pulling evenly, like you don't want the A pedal pulling to the C# before the B pedal pulls to the A when you press them both all the way down, evenly. It just takes experience to get a good sound as you push the pedals and move the bar. There's a lot to be said about left foot technique that I've never seen addressed on the Forum.
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 7:00 pm
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I hadn't thought about the issue of bar straightness while sliding much before Paul made his post, but when I thought about it for a bit, what he said made sense. To me, the issue is that all aspects of this instrument - and especially the bar - must be absolutely controlled at all times. Try this experiment - put the bar somewhere, strike a chord, and then make the tiniest deviation in bar angle possible and listen to the difference. To me, it's striking - tiny, tiny variations are clearly audible.
What is the first thing I notice between a really 'great' player and a 'regular' but still good steel player? It's usually absolute precision of pitch - the way notes are approached as well as their ultimate destination.
So it strikes me that at the very least, this is a critical exercise in learning highly controlled bar movement, and that any deviation from this should be intended, not accidental. Of course, complete control is inherent in 'mastery' of anything. But with the large number of degrees of left-hand freedom that this instrument permits, this kind of left-hand precision seems doubly critical.
I've spent more time on pitch control than anything else the last couple of years. It's better, but I'm still not satisfied. This looks like another tool in the arsenal. Just my opinion. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 7:05 pm
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I took advantage of a tip from John Hughey and I immediately noticed a big difference in pedal-control because of the change I made. John told me once that he changed the gauges on his E9-tuning, because; he thought they had a better feel. He changed the size of strings #7 & #8 to (#7) F# = .024w, (#8) E = .028w. Now on my (C)-Pedal I Raise #8 (E) to (F#) along with #4 & #5. I noticed that by changing to the lighter gauges made this pedal-change very smooth! His gauges, as he gave to me for the E9-Tuning were, to the best of my memory: lo-hi .038w, .034w, [.028w, .024w], .020p, .017p, .014p, .0115p, .015p, .012p.
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 7:10 pm
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I just sat down at my guitar and played a little, and I noticed that in most cases when moving the bar to a different position I don't press the pedal(s) until I get to the target fret, FWIW.
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 7:19 pm
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Some times I bottom-out at the same time as I reach the intended fret and other times the complete change only occurs after I arrive at the intended fret. I think it depends on the particular phrase being played. “One-size” does not “fit-all”! I guess this sort of explains the meaning of ‘style’!
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Dec 2009 7:52 pm
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Well at least I won't be disagreeing with you know who.... Not that you're not important Joe..
I have found that the bar is very fluid in motion after your neuromuscular responses become more automatic. Mostly keeping with the parallel.
I find myself a lot of the time adjusting the bar slightly out of perfect parallel. One obviously is the three note diminished slant. Pretty standard though maybe a bit antiquated.. Then bar slants in general.
I find myself being a working steel player sometimes having an octave pair that's slipped out a few cents, that I can't get to til my playing break is over, and I'll slant to make up for it. I constantly play moving root/fifths with one being an octave. Used to do it all the time when the tuning nut would get loose and slip on my C#s. New strings in the first couple sets too need a little "nudge" til you can reset them perfectly.
Also. Unless I mentioned it, I'm a straight up ET tuner. Have been for 30+ working years.
Sometimes with the AB pedals down and a 10-6-4 split, I'll slant it ever so slightly to dull the ringing of a bright major chord. That 10th with the pedals down is the Third.
I've also seen old players wiggle the bar slowly in a kind of circular motion in vibrato so it's not an "all up and all down" warbling affair. Sounds good. I think I've tried it, but just keep it straight out of habit. It makes sense I guess. Vibrato is mostly a bad habit anyhow the way a poor abused red headed guy tried to teach me..
( in best Clint Eastwood voice..)
"I'm goin now. Now don't nobody bash me for nicking Joe here... or otherwise abuse anybody disagreeing... Or I'll be be back and ....."
EJL |
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Robby Springfield
From:
Viola, AR, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 10:12 am Re: Paul Franklin's "Bar" thoughts..a question
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| Joe Alterio wrote: |
Soooo....my reasoning was that the pros know when and how to start engaging, say, the A-pedal at just the riht time in the slide, and with the right amount of pressure being added to the pedal as they slide the bar up the neck. This is in conjunction with the E-raise also being done at the same time.
OR....the pros are angling the bar as they slide it up the fretboard to keep things sounding in tune.
OR...a combination of both.
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I have never noticed any of the pro guys doing any kind of slant in connection to your question. I do not use any kind of slant to achive this. I wish I could give you a precise answer but the truth is that this is kind of a feel/ear thing and it happens without thinking about it...probably from years of just doing it.
As mentioned earlier, there are a few exceptions to the rule of keeping the bar straight such as the deminished. But the key word here is FEW and only applies to tuning preferences.
We must not forget that Paul's post was only refering to ONE, I repeat, ONE technique of precision.
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Robby
www.power3productions.com |
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Robby Springfield
From:
Viola, AR, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 10:21 am
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I forgot to add to my post that Joe asked a very good question.
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Robby
www.power3productions.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 11:15 am
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I spend a lot of my practice time working on smooth transitions from one position to the next. Keeping the bar parallel to the frets as you move it is one aspect. Another is engaging or releasing the pedals/levers in time with the length of the slide.
Each guitar is different, and your body has to learn the nuances of those differences. The amount of pedal pressure and travel varies from one guitar to another. If you play one guitar exclusively for a long time, you can get very good at this. But it takes a concentrated effort, practicing movements and very short phrases instead of songs.
Also, the distance between fret positions is different in each key, so you have to practice the transitions in every key. The angle of your wrist is different at every fret. This stuff becomes second nature after a while, but the initial learning takes time and effort.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 11:22 am
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| Cal Sharp wrote: |
| I just sat down at my guitar and played a little, and I noticed that in most cases when moving the bar to a different position I don't press the pedal(s) until I get to the target fret, FWIW. |
Doesn't that sound out of key at the F lever positions?
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 12:14 pm
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In response to Joe's question about when to apply the pedals in the movement from one fret to another. I can only speak from my experience as a self taught musician. I'll leave the description of the techniques to the Pro's, but I can offer some encouragement as one who's been down the road of struggling to figure these things out in my playing.
While I believe that there is probably a textbook proper way to do it, I think description of it is not as important to the final outcome as is the paying attention to one's own ears. Practice will bring about perfection and these things will come second nature, and any variance between players can be credited to style.
A child learns to crawl and then to walk, all as a self taught learning process. A verbal description of, okay, now stand up, put your left foot foward....now wait..... balance youself....... lean back a little.......now move your right foot....... whoops......you fell down, won't make it happen. So you try again. Eventually it will happen and finally it will become something they master from the try and fail experiences.
An important part of the equation is what brings about the motivation. No doubt, the child sees older children and adults walking and running and thinks... I want to do that too. That's my inspiration of hearing guys like John Hughey and Paul Frankling play. They can teach us a lot, but some things we just have to take on within ourselves and practice until the hands, brain, and ears, figure out how to work together. Paul, Buddy, etc... have mastered these things with precise execution of timing and accuracy. To be honest to ourselves, we have to accept the fact that some of us will never reach that level of proficency, amd some may exceed it, for whatever reasons. Some people are great atheletes naturally, while other spend their lives trying to be and never make it. We can thank mother nature for that.
I teach people to fly airplanes and while description of the techniques is important, much of it is just being there to jump in as they learn from their mistakes to keep them from hurting themselves.
Here's an analogy I use in my work to describe some procedues. It's like tying your shoes. It's something we all do everyday, but if we had to describe it to someone over the phone, we probably couldn't do it, and they couldn't do it successfully from our description. So, pointers to head in the right direction is the starting place, but the individual has to take the responsibility and practice to make it work.
My experiences for what it's worth.  |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 1:27 pm
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| Quote: |
Cal Sharp wrote:
I just sat down at my guitar and played a little, and I noticed that in most cases when moving the bar to a different position I don't press the pedal(s) until I get to the target fret, FWIW.
Doesn't that sound out of key at the F lever positions? |
The F lever being the E to F knee lever? I've never got that knee lever in tune with both pedals down and pedals up, so I do use a bar slant for it, but I don't use that knee lever very much.
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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Billy Knowles
From:
Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 1:54 pm F lever
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Cal,
Aman to that F lever being out of tune, it doesn't just sound out of tune, it is out of tune.
Note: on one of my legrands I have a pull on the 6th string on the F lever to pull the 3 strings more in tune. I can't remember if it raised or lowers the 6th string though but it helps a lot.
Billy |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 2:11 pm
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Billy, I tune the 4th string E to F to be in tune with the pedals down, and the 8th string E to F to be in tune with no pedals. There's quite a difference.
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 3:06 pm
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Here are a couple of examples:
| Tab: |
F# ___________________________________________________
D# ___________________________________________________
G# ___________________________________________________
E __3----4F____8---6F________________________________
B __3A---4A____8---6A________________________________
G# __3B---4_____8---6_________________________________
F# ___________________________________________________
E ___________________________________________________
D ___________________________________________________
B ___________________________________________________
I----IV I---V |
In the first one, the trick is to keep the low note stable. You release the B pedal while you're moving the bar. The high note moves a full step as you engage the lever, and the middle one moves a half step with the bar.
In the second example, it's the middle note that doesn't move.
These kinds of exercises help to "attach" your body to your guitar. The more precise muscle control you have over the machine, the better you'll play.
_________________
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 4:00 pm
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| Cal Sharp wrote: |
| Quote: |
Cal Sharp wrote:
I just sat down at my guitar and played a little, and I noticed that in most cases when moving the bar to a different position I don't press the pedal(s) until I get to the target fret, FWIW.
Doesn't that sound out of key at the F lever positions? |
The F lever being the E to F knee lever? I've never got that knee lever in tune with both pedals down and pedals up, so I do use a bar slant for it, but I don't use that knee lever very much. |
Uh Oh  |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 7:13 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
Here are a couple of examples:
| Tab: |
F# ___________________________________________________
D# ___________________________________________________
G# ___________________________________________________
E __3----4F____8---6F________________________________
B __3A---4A____8---6A________________________________
G# __3B---4_____8---6_________________________________
F# ___________________________________________________
E ___________________________________________________
D ___________________________________________________
B ___________________________________________________
I----IV I---V |
In the first one, the trick is to keep the low note stable. You release the B pedal while you're moving the bar. The high note moves a full step as you engage the lever, and the middle one moves a half step with the bar.
In the second example, it's the middle note that doesn't move.
These kinds of exercises help to "attach" your body to your guitar. The more precise muscle control you have over the machine, the better you'll play. |
Yep...that's a great example of what I was trying to say. Keeping one note steady while changing frets...it is one of the most difficult challenges I have faced with this instrument and one that, I feel, is one of the defining differences between the pros and the amateurs. You'd think after 10 years I could sorta get it.... 
Dave, Rick and b0b....thanks for sharing your thoughts on this....kinda surprising this topic isn't really ever discussed here. This has as much important with sounding "in tune" as the whole ET vs JI issue, IMO.... |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 7:59 pm
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Pardon my ignorance, but what does "ET and "JI" stand for. (I know I'll probably feel stupid after I hear the answer)  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 8:09 pm
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"ET" is equal temperament, what you call "straight up 440".
"JI" is just intonation, the beatless harmonic tuning system preferred by most steel guitarists.
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 9:25 pm
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| Cal Sharp wrote: |
The F lever being the E to F knee lever? I've never got that knee lever in tune with both pedals down and pedals up, so I do use a bar slant for it, but I don't use that knee lever very much. |
Does anybody place the bar slightly sharp of the fret when using the A-F combination, to tighten up the tuning? I was advised to do this by one of the greats, and it works for me.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 9:34 pm
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Yes. If you don't tune equal temperament, you must "aim high" by about 1/8 fret to play the A+F positions in tune.
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David Griffin
From:
Jimmy Creek,Arkansas via Cowtown, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 9:36 pm
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I do it the opposite of Cal,because I like to use it on strings 3,4 &5 to use as a 7th chord.(In the A-F pos. by releasing the A pedal). Is that what you use it for,Cal? Are there other uses for the F-lver w/ the pedals up? Thanx-dg
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http://www.myspace.com/davidagriffin |
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Joe Goldmark
From:
San Francisco, CA 94131
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Posted 30 Dec 2009 9:39 pm
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Cal,
Lloyd told me that he's always a little North of the fret in the E-F chord position. It seems to help.
Joe |
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