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Topic: Some people will hate this! |
Dave Boothroyd
From:
Staffordshire Moorlands
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 3:10 am |
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This is an extract from a review of a software Pedal Steel. It comes from the latest edition of Sound on Sound.
From the description it sounds ever harder to play than a real PSG.
I don't think that would stop me from having a play with the free demo version though.
I'm guessing that the luddite faction will denounce it as the work of the devil though! javascript:emoticon(' ')
Cheers
Dave
Wavelore Pedal Steel
Kontakt 2/3/4
Published in SOS December 2009
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Reviews : Sample / Sound / Song Library
I think it’s fair to say that Wavelore are a company who create niche sample libraries: their first commercial product was a fully playable American Zither and, while the Kontakt-based Pedal Steel Guitar under review here might be considered a little more mainstream, you can hardly accuse them of creating a ‘me too’ instrument! Available as a 1.3GB download, the library unpacks to 1.9GB of 24-bit samples, and the Kontakt instrument includes eight-way round-robin sampling (so that repeated notes sound more natural), convolution-based amp models with a selection of reverb and mono/stereo mic choices, and plenty of MIDI expression options. A useful PDF manual is also included but, given the rather intricate playing and keyswitch configuration, it might also have been nice to have had some example MIDI file performances that could be loaded into your host sequencer for tutorial purposes.
Getting the best out of this library requires two things over and above a copy of Kontakt. First, sustain and expression pedals for your controller keyboard are pretty much essential. The sustain pedal changes the way in which samples from different strings on the pedal steel are mapped across the keyboard and, in turn, this creates different voicing and bending options. The expression pedal is used to control volume and, as volume swells are such a characteristic part of pedal steel playing, this is an important element in creating a realistic performance.
The other thing that’s required is some perseverance. Recreating the 10 strings of the most common pedal-steel format in software for a keyboard to play in a way that’s realistic (you can only play combinations of notes that are physically possible on a real pedal steel) requires some fairly complex sample mapping. As a result, this is not a straightforward instrument to play, and the behaviour of notes ‘bending’ into the next note when played legato varies across the keyboard. MIDI CC4 is also used to change ‘position’ on the pedal-steel neck (to simulate the slide being placed over, for example, the fifth fret rather than in ‘open’ position), and this also changes which notes might bend into another. So it’s complex stuff, but still probably not as complex as learning to play the real thing, and there are some useful examples in the manual to get you started.
While I suspect that this sample library may only appeal to a limited audience, Wavelore deserve their five stars, both for daring to be different, and for the careful thought that has gone into the construction. While the results of my few hours’ testing with Pedal Steel is unlikely to have any Nashville session players quaking in their cowboy boots, I was able to coax enough out of it to convince me of the potential for anyone putting in a little serious study. A time-limited demo is available for those who wish to explore further. John Walden
$299.99. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 5:53 am
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Anyone that's good at reading/writing tab should be able to use this no problem. It's basically the same thing.
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 8:14 am
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Anyone who is willing to accept what you get when someone who doesn't play steel 'imagines' a steel part and tries to build one out of Tinkertoys will probably be happy with these samples.
If all a producer (and I use the term loosely) needs is the suggestion of a steel guitar this approach should work fine. If you need a sensitive, responsive part played by someone who has done this before with good results, go hire a steel player. (Yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir)
Whether or not I/we object this has been happening for years, but a 'cut and paste' steel part is about the best you will get. If that's good enough, then that's good enough. It's a shame when we realize how many competent steel players who could deliver 'the real deal' are available all over the world.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 9:26 am
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I wouldn't be too worried. I also play keyboards, and my Korg Triton Le88 has a pedal steel patch. It really doesn't sound like one, but I also never recorded it to see how it sounds in a mix. I imagine that this sample library will have the same problems as the patch on my Triton. You can only bend all the notes you are playing at one time using the pitch wheel. The thing we have as being unique to our instrument, is the ability to move some strings in a chord, often lowering and raising strings while having 1 or more stay the same pitch. I know of no way to simulate this on a keyboard.
Now, a really good keyboard player might be able to multi-track record several notes (or accomplish the same task with a sequencer)with the appropriate bends, but that is going to take great keyboarding skills as well as recording skills. It could not be pulled off live. Although I just read the post again, it says "First, sustain and expression pedals for your controller keyboard are pretty much essential. The sustain pedal changes the way in which samples from different strings on the pedal steel are mapped across the keyboard and, in turn, this creates different voicing and bending options." I still don't understand how they will be able to assign the sustain pedal to activate different strings without actually setting the sustain pedal parameter to a certain value (probably meaning which string and the amount and direction of the bend).
I don't see this as a threat until they can come up with a MIDI pedal accessory that has several pedals that can be programmed (but what about knee levers?). Some digital organs (like my Roland VK8m organ module) have the ability to add a MIDI pedal board (basically just another form of a keyboard controller) which adds the foot bass pedals that you see on some of the big organs, like a B-3. Then I would worry. Just because they can make great samples of an instrument, doesn't mean it can be play like the instrument.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 29 Nov 2009 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 9:29 am
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Larry,
I agree. FYI: My post was related to how complicated it would be to use this. In today's computed based world, these things are becoming more and more common. I use BIAB for my drum parts because I can't do it myself, and I don't want to hire a drummer. I'd rather have the real thing, but it's close enough for me, and much more convenient.
As steel becomes less and less important in the music, I think we'll see some of this computer steel taking place.... as a step toward no steel at all. It's not that there's not plenty of good players around, it's just that the music is moving away from songs that are steel friendly. I really believe the only reason a lot of them use it now is just to make their music more acceptabe to the country industry. Of course, I'm talking mainstream country, there are exceptions thank God.
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 10:37 am
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Richard,
For live performance, I absolutely agree with you: if you are doing counterpoint or multiple moving tones with one or more stationary, the controller is not sophisticated enough. However, for the studio, the problem can be solved with multiple tracks recorded separately.
BUT . . .
. . . it will sound like (as I said b4) someone who doesn't play steel trying to imitate one. Granted, some people will be fooled.
It's kinda like a reso simulator. I use mine for the two or three songs with signature Dobro licks and some people actually comment on how great it sounds. There are no Dobro players in that group, however. The question is simply "how close is close enough?" The answer is "depends on who's listening".
And, Rick, where you'll see this happening is in the small, low budget, project studios. Anyone with a budget can pay $100 for a real steel player.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 10:42 am
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| Quote: |
| As steel becomes less and less important in the music, I think we'll see some of this computer steel taking place.... as a step toward no steel at all. It's not that there's not plenty of good players around, it's just that the music is moving away from songs that are steel friendly. |
I really don't see it that way. I think it's more because of economics (they only buy the software once, but they have to hire a steeler for every session), and because we're playing a lot of the same simple licks whenever we play - so engineers think that a gimmick like this is probably all they need.
I have no illusion that gimmicks like this will ever totally replace real players in any but the most low-budget operations. Pros (and those who want to be pros) want the real thing - because there are still some people who can tell the difference. Computer programs can immitate sounds, and they will only continue to improve in that area. But the imagination, the dymnamics, and the emotion and interaction of real players will never be synthesized.
If all you can do is play neat little pedal sounds and inversions, well...your job may be in jeopardy. But if you're a soulful, energetic, and imaginative musician, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 11:53 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As steel becomes less and less important in the music, I think we'll see some of this computer steel taking place.... as a step toward no steel at all. It's not that there's not plenty of good players around, it's just that the music is moving away from songs that are steel friendly. |
I really don't see it that way. I think it's more because of economics (they only buy the software once, but they have to hire a steeler for every session), and because we're playing a lot of the same simple licks whenever we play - so engineers think that a gimmick like this is probably all they need.
I have no illusion that gimmicks like this will ever totally replace real players in any but the most low-budget operations. Pros (and those who want to be pros) want the real thing - because there are still some people who can tell the difference. Computer programs can immitate sounds, and they will only continue to improve in that area. But the imagination, the dymnamics, and the emotion and interaction of real players will never be synthesized.
If all you can do is play neat little pedal sounds and inversions, well...your job may be in jeopardy. But if you're a soulful, energetic, and imaginative musician, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. |
Hark, we are in agreement. Yes, the low budget studios will be the first to use these things, but I still think the music is on track to move away from steel altogether. Sure, there will be exceptions, but top 40 today, steel is a side dish and not part of the main course the way it once was, and I don't see it getting any better for awhile.
I hope I'm wrong and music takes a turn back to the days of strong steel influence like Conway and Hughey, or Buck and Brumley, but I'm not holding my breath. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 12:32 pm
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Total Quality Management comes to the recording studio. "Drive Out Variation" was Dr. Deming's slogan.
Why are they trying to do that to music making?  |
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Clint Jones
From:
Riverview, Florida USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 4:26 pm Close is the Real Thing
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| Larry Bell wrote: |
Richard,
The question is simply "how close is close enough?" |
Larry, I think you feel the same way if I am reading your post correctly.
How close is "The Real Thing and Only the Real Thing" for me anyway. There is no way that anything; but a real steel player, can evoke such emotion and create such sounds with deep feelings as the high register on the E9th.
I tear up myself when I play an emotional piece of good solid traditional country music. My wife on the otherhand just plain HATES the sound of Pedal Steel so she cries in another way all together.  Silly girl.
Thanks Larry
_________________
I pray that when I leave this world, that I'll had at least touched one person with my music. I don't know where I'll be going, but I hope I can bring my pedal steel along. |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 5:47 pm
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| I tried the demo, and it seems like more work than it's worth. Certain instruments (percussion, keys) seem to work well with sample players; pedal steel is not one of them! |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 7:18 pm
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This software was put together by a local guitarist here in St. John's named Mark Belbin. (He doesn't play steel.) A few years ago, he called me and asked if he could rent my steel and amp for this project. I declined because I was too busy with gigs, but sent him on to a friend and fellow forum member Don Cuff who rented him a Legrande and Webb for about a month - long enough for Mark to enter all the pulls into his recorder. He offered both of us a copy of the software when it was completed, but I guess it was like offering ice cubes to Eskimos.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 7:46 pm
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A good bit of the sampling software out there seems aimed at serious keyboard/programming geeks, and it looks like this one might only appeal to somebody who loves to tweak and futz... I wouldn't worry about being obsolete quite yet.
It does make me remember how cheesy string section patches were on early synthesizers, and how realistic and workable they've gotten over time.
We'd love to think that the myriad subtle things that go into steel performance are not reproducible electronically. But it's probably a matter of time, and if somebody thinks it's worth the development time.
Maybe some karma to deal with from steel players covering all those string section parts with Boss-Tones in the 70's...  |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 29 Nov 2009 10:32 pm
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If you want to get even, invent a MIDI pickup for PSG and then use the PSG as a controller to get piano, organ, and synthesizer sounds.
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Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind! |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 30 Nov 2009 2:24 am
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Al Petty used to do that before he went away on an extended vacation..........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 30 Nov 2009 8:20 pm
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| Leslie Ehrlich wrote: |
| If you want to get even, invent a MIDI pickup for PSG and then use the PSG as a controller to get piano, organ, and synthesizer sounds. |
I think Pee Wee Charles did that for the "Ghostbusters" song on the Northern Steel CD.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 1 Dec 2009 2:38 pm
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It's a shame when we realize how many competent steel players who could deliver 'the real deal' are available all over the world.
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Just not as economically.
Sad truth. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2009 3:07 pm
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| Curt Langston wrote: |
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It's a shame when we realize how many competent steel players who could deliver 'the real deal' are available all over the world.
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Just not as economically.
Sad truth. |
Yeah, but W.C. Edgar can't seem to find one for his band that don't have too many bad habits or strings attached. His requirements didn't seem too demanding to me.
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 11:09 am
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| I iried this on a keyboard: Strike notes c and e use pitch wheel to raise half step while dropping c note to b. Don D. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 1:13 pm
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| Quote: |
If all you can do is play neat little pedal sounds and inversions, well...your job may be in jeopardy.
It's a shame when we realize how many competent steel players who could deliver 'the real deal' are available all over the world. |
The reality is, scoring budgets have been getting cut and most of the people that use these things aren't going to hire you, anyway. Typically, the players that do get hired are the ones that show up as a guitar player who also brings and plays steel, Dobro and lap guitars with DADFAD. For that matter, there are a number of guitar players that can do a respectable bend and that's probably all the music director was looking for, in the first place. |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2009 5:25 pm
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 There is a saying that goes like this ...Often imitated but '' never duplicated '' !!! Case dismissed ! If you want steel then pay for one and get the ''REAL '' thing . I have heard these so called steel guitar sounds and that is just what it is so called at best ! Sorry but that is the way i see it ! G.P. |
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David Murdock
From:
New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2012 8:19 pm Wavelore Pedal Steel
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I've been playing pedal steel for almost 30 years. I started doing electronic music production recently and ran across this software and downloaded it. I was able to put together the following sample within a few minutes after downloading it.
http://soundcloud.com/bounces-1
It is extremely easy to use ......... just a midi controller keyboard with a couple of good mod wheels. However, I must say that it doesn't come close to duplicating the real thing if you're playing slow ballads with long slides. If you don't play like Paul Franklin, It is GREAT for doing fast technical pieces which you can record at a slower speed and quantize. |
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Ransom Beers
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Posted 24 Mar 2012 6:33 am
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Here's one that I think would be very easy.
www.1manband.nl/omb.htm
Hook up a MiDi controller to your computer via USB port & start making your own backing track etc.
I been planning on getting one . |
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Craig Schwartz
From:
McHenry IL
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Posted 24 Mar 2012 8:55 am
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Last night we saw 5 piece modern country band playing high energy songs (Radio hits like toby kieth and others)no cover in a bowling alley bar , maybe 50-75 people max, they were using samples from a device for the other instruments like steel, fiddle, keyboards, They played non stop for 3.5 hrs, they all had the ear devices on, when the fiddle players amp blew up (who by the way was exceotionally good I think) the fiddle sounds were still playing when she was`nt playing, while trying to fix her amp, HMMM
Anyway all said and done , I walked up to table to intro myself where they were counting there night up and saw 10-12 stacks each equaling $100. Looked like a pretty good night for that register to ring,
I think the only people that will see the difference, drunk or not , are guys like us who can hear well enough to know better, MAN IT`S JUST NOT FAIR SOMETIMES ... LOL 
_________________
SO MANY LURES, SO LITTLE TIME.... |
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Wayne Franco
From:
silverdale, WA. USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2012 10:49 am The new version of BIAB
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Paul Franklin is playing steel on the tracks. Dang, I forgot to ask him about that when he was in Dallas.
Wayne Franco |
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