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Topic: John Hiatt----So How Is This Effect Done? |
Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 May 2009 1:54 pm |
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I'm listening to a fine, fine recording---John Hiatt, "It Feels Like Rain". There is a guitar (I don't know if it is John or Sonny Landreth playing it---there's another guitar that I assume to be Sonny) with a great throbbing tremolo---this has taught me a bunch about the beauty of a trem pushing a slight distortion/overdrive or overdriven amp. The trem is 100% in time with the music. Four hits per beat, exactly.
I've got this idea in my head that Hiatt and Landreth are tonally organic (meaning not digital or midi-ized) but the only way I can imagine this can be done, beginning to end with no time-drift, is with a click track and a trem clocked to the click. Can any of you tech/engineer wizards comment on this?
Man, that's a nice recording. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 30 May 2009 2:40 pm
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I haven't heard the track, but there are tremolos that has a tap tempo function so you can make it run at a certain tempo/figure that corresponds with the tune.
If it's a digital recording then most tremolo plugins has a sync function so it's automatically locked to the tempo of the tune, so it could be that, but if it's pushing the overdrive then it's probably a pedal with a tap tempo function placed in front of the amp.
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 May 2009 2:49 pm
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This is outside of my experience but---in, say, a 3-4 minute song can you possibly tap in a tempo and have it stay true to the tempo of the song? This is why I am guessing that it is locked in to the same click that the drummer must be playing to. But I am only making up this solution. Maybe a drummer's click and a tap tempo trem will get it done.
Or is the tap-tempo trem actually hearing the beat and locking in to the pulse?
I don't have an audio upload site, otherwise I'd provide an mp3. It's a honey. |
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Brian Kurlychek
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 30 May 2009 3:03 pm
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The tap tempo will work as long as the person playing the instrument is on time.
_________________
We live to play another day. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 30 May 2009 3:46 pm
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| As an engineer and producer,if I was gonna try to do that I would build the track around a drummer who can play to a click (some good ones can't)and add the guitar thing with a trem plugin synced to the grid. If it needed to go into slight distortion at the top of the volume pulse,I'd automate that too with a dirtbox plugin or better yet - rout the guitar out of the computer and re-amp it thru a small tube amp like a Blues Jr set accordingly and re-mic it back onto a new track.There's prolly 5 other ways to do it including getting lucky on the fly with the right cats. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 May 2009 4:07 pm
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Ok. Good. I've done some research so let me add this to the mix----
---recorded in '88.
---guitarists are Hiatt, Landreth and Bernie Leadon.
---drummer is Ken Blevins
---producer & engineer are Glyn Johns and Larry Hirsch
Don't know if that fills in any blanks although the date certainly helps to define what is possible.
Do any FX units trigger their clock from the input? I mean--with any time based modulating effect I've ever used, it sweeps, whether I play or not. If a trem unit started modulating only when I hit a chord, then I could keep it in sync, in the long run (after having set the tempo as close I can) with my playing. But I don't know if there is any such thing. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 May 2009 4:25 pm
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Matching the tremelo knob to the tempo of a song isn't as hard as it sounds. It isn't as critical as you would think. It actually has to be pretty far off to be noticeable.
Nobody will notice if the tremelo wave at bar 34, beat 2 is 180 degrees out of phase with the wave at bar 14, beat 3. The shift is only a few milliseconds from one beat to the next.
And if the rhythm section is listening to the tremelo guitar and using it as their tempo instead of a click track, the sync would be virtually automatic.
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 30 May 2009 7:43 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
---producer & engineer are Glyn Johns and Larry Hirsch |
With Glyn Johns on board, I'd wager a guess on a amp- knob-tempo-match. I'm not familiar with this track, however! Going to give a listen real soon... |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 30 May 2009 9:09 pm
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I have been using a Line 6 Tap Tremelo pedal for a while and it is awesome....
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 30 May 2009 9:54 pm
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| You wouldn't really notice the slight drift if your not holding long notes. It sounds to me like a Tele and a Fender Brownface bias tremolo with that warm oscillation. |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 31 May 2009 4:53 am
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Great find, Alvin. Yep, that's it.
I don't mean to be obsessive but I get that way when listening to stuff on an mp3 player with headphones which really accentuates stuff. That throb is more pronounced and you can check in at any point of the song and hear that the pulse is on the down beat at all times. So I got to wondering.
Thanks for the insights. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 31 May 2009 6:36 am
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That's a great album, Jon.
I think they used to get really specific tremolo stuff by keying a gate with a drum machine set to the tempo and desired rhythm.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Barry Blackwood
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 31 May 2009 7:55 am
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| Exactly the same (as far as the pulse being 100% in sync with the meter.) So, experts---is that an amp trem or is it a foot on a vol pedal or a hand on a knob? I could see, in such a spare arrangement, that this could be a case of setting the trem and having everyone keep time to it. Much tougher to do in the more layered Hiatt song. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 31 May 2009 9:53 am
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b0b is on the money. The easiest way to do this is to have everyone play in time with the tremolo.
Chet Atkins did another tune in which he synchronized to the "trough" of the tremolo, like using a volume pedal to take the attack off every note. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 May 2009 10:26 am
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| Kudos to Barry for remembering "Slinky", as I was gonna mention that one too! Bob's also exactly right about the band "syncing" to the tremolo. It's a very easy effect to do, but one that loses it's drama fast if it's used too often. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 31 May 2009 12:22 pm
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| Rich, was it "Boo Boo Stick Beat," or something else? |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 31 May 2009 1:39 pm
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No, not Boo Boo Stick Beat. That was the one on which he used a volume pedal rewired as a tone control, forshadowing the wah pedal.
I'll have to dig through the vinyl and find the one I referred to. |
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Jerry Erickson
From:
Atlanta,IL 61723
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Posted 1 Jun 2009 8:17 pm
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| I'm with Chris on this. It sounds like a Brownface Pro trem/vibrato to me. I own one and I can't think of selling it because that trem is SO gorgeous. This song reminded me of an Aaron Neville record I have that has this great trem part on it. I went and found the CD and it's Aaron's version of the same song! He cut it in 1990-91 with Ry Cooder doing the guitar and slide work. At the time I thought the amp was a Fender, but I'm not so sure now. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 2:40 am
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No rocket science here. Just turn the trem on the amp close to the tempo of the song and play. The trem he is using is not slow enough to be some sort of pedal. The Fender trems don't slow down as much as the pedals do.
The best cheap trem pedal I have ever used is the Damo Tuna Melt. You can get them for a good price. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 11:12 am
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| Fascinating. People who are too lazy to actually read this thread will way "Bill sure took care of that, toot sweet" and people who have read the thread will say "Bill was too lazy to read the thread". |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 12:30 pm
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The effect is timed to 8th notes, which means that the peaks and troughs are on alternate 16th notes. Nobody else is playing 16th notes. Even if the tempo of the effect isn't timed perfectly, a peak is always within a 16th from the downbeat. Your ear resolves them to the beat.
_________________
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 1:08 pm
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That's a good analysis, b0b. Here are my reasons for still remaining uncertain---
---the headphone test. There is not a single moment in this song where I can hear the guitar out of phase with the beat (when I can hear the guitar).
---there are times when the guitar ducks out or plays low. This would make it tough for the rest of the band to sync to the tremolo, wouldn't it?
---get a metronome and try to set it to any record. It doesn't take long for the sync to wander.
I am not losing sleep over this. The thread exaggerates the degree of my obsession which truly is minor. It was merely a bit of curiosity. I agree wih the several people who say say it sounds like a particular guitar and amp. As stated in the original question, I had this notion that Hiatt & friends tended toward organic sounds, ie. tube distortions and non-fx effects and the comment about the producer Johns adds to this idea (which is why I mentioned the name--I don't know his work but I hoped it would have meaning to someone.)
So there it is. Could be as simple as a guitar and an amp and a song. There are a lot of recordings that get me wondering 'how was that done?', nuts & bolts-wise. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 2 Jun 2009 1:28 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
---there are times when the guitar ducks out or plays low. This would make it tough for the rest of the band to sync to the tremolo, wouldn't it?
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The guitar could have been played all through the recording, then dropped down or out during the mixdown. |
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