Final mixdown.....to where?

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

I am trying to come up with the best solution to what I consider to be my “weakest link” in my home recording efforts. Currently I use an 8-track ADAT XT-20 in conjunction with a Yamaha 16 channel mixer (I also have a back-up ADAT 16 bit black-face which “has issues” so I rarely us it). 8 tracks is usually sufficient but I do wind up bouncing here and there. I actually “reverted” to ADAT from a Tascam 24 bit digital 8 track because I hated the dinky, small grey display – I racked the mixer/ADATs so I can see everything as I record and the meters are nice and bright and visible. And hey…I’m a bit old fashioned and like tape, although I must admit the editing capabilities of the Tascam are great and I still use it for effects as well.

Anyway, my issue is, once I have recorded a song with all tracks, I am usually quite happy with the sound quality through phones on the Yamaha. I then transfer to my PC using a fairly cheapo Blaze Audio software (wave file creator). I also sometimes use a Creative recorder that came as part of my MP3 player package. This is where I seem to lose fidelity. It isn’t horrible by any means, but playing back the .WAVs on the PC (and subsequently when burned to disk) doesn’t sound as good as when I just play it back through my mixer.

Is my problem the software? Do I need a better soundcard? (I have a Soundblaster but can’t say what card/version off-hand). Maybe the 12 or so feet of cabling between the PC and the mixer? (I bought VERY expensive cabling hoping that would improve things but it didn’t). I really would prefer to not scrap my entire set-up for say an AW-2400 but (if it’s rack-mountable I may consider it) – I’m even less crazy about an entirely “PC-based” system. Everything is on the table, but I’d like to look at cheap solutions first.

Any suggestions?

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Are you actually recording as wav? or is it recording the songs as MP3 then converting them to wav? If it's not being saved directly as a wav file you will lose a little. An MP3 is a compressed audio file and "something less than full fidelity" and when you convert an MP3 to wav you don't regain the original full fidelity - it's the same fidelity as the MP3 file.

Almost all modern PC's will record in at least 16 bit (CD quality) so I doubt that it's the PC's sound card.

Headphones can be decieving, when I mixdown I listen to it on headphones and on my Samson studio monitors and there can be a difference (and some of it by the compensation in the headphones). I find my studio monitors give me the closest sound when mixing. But, after I do get songs mixed down I burn a CD and then check them out on a cheap CD player boom box, my car stereo and my big stereo system, and then go back and remix the ones I don't like.

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

Jack

Sorry for the confusion. The actual "recording" lives on digital tape (20 bit) on my ADAT. I'm just trying to preserve the "quality" I hear playing back that tape when I ultimately transfer it to CD, and the only way I can do that is to first get it to my PC and then use software that creates a .WAV file from an input source. I run 2 RCA cables out of my mixer that join into a stereo plug and plug that into my sound card on the back of my PC.

The actual mix isn't the issue...it's more the transfer I am concerned with.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I don't see where the PC "recording" would affect the sound if it's being saved directly as a wav file.

I'm now using computer based with Sonar 8, but previouisly I was recording on a Fostex VF160 hard drive recorder and I would mix the recordings and record them on the PC at the same time through the two channel (stereo) analog input on the PC. What I heard in the PC, after it was saved as a wav file, was exactly the same thing I heard on the Fostex.

I wonder if it has something to do with whatever program you are using to playback the PC audio. Some programs have their own EQ and some PC's have an "Audio Enhancements" option that can add to the playback sounds. These could "color" the playback audio. Are you using the same headset plugged into the PC as you are using to listen to the audio from the ADAT?

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

So you're mixing the ADAT outputs through the Yamaha mixer as a stereo send to the PC right? Even though the headphone sounds good from the Yamaha mixer, maybe the bus outputs have a slightly 'different' signal path? What model Yamaha mixer? older? newer? I'd try to beg/borrow another mixer of some sort and see if you get an improvement. Also, when you say it doesn't sound as good once on the PC, is that when played back through headphones, or speakers? Headphones can tend to be a bit 'optimistic' IMO when it comes to mixes. i.e the mixes sound bigger than they really are. That said, I'd expect the headphone mix from the PC ought to be pretty much the same as the headphone mix from the Yamaha.

I'm with Jack, I think most PC soundcards have decent 16-bit .wav recording capability these days, so I'd bet the problem is upstream.
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John Gould · From: Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX

One simple thing that you can check is the phase of your cables. That can really effect the tone of a product. I would make sure the cables coming from your mixer are not out of phase and also check the phase of the mixer output. I've purchased what was considered matched cables that where out of phase with each other.
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Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

John Gould · From: Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX

Do you own a OHM meter of any kind?
or you can make a tester out of a battery and
a LED bulb.
You just want to make sure you get continuity on the tip of both ends of the cable and nothing is crossed to the sleeve if they are mono cables.
Kind of the same process on the mixer out just make sure that the two sides use the same polarity.
Are there any polarity switches on the mixer? Make sure none are switched if there are.
I have seen one instance of a sound card that had bad phase on one side.
I have a HOSA snake that one pair of cables that are wired out of phase
_________________
A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II

Randy Reeves · From: LaCrosse, Wisconsin, USA

the weakest link in my home recording set up is Mastering software.
like you, I get the mix sounding great, but when sent out either in WAV or 320bitMP3 the dynamics and overall volume are not there.
I was told mastering will make the mix sound finished.
Ozone 4 is on my wish list.

John Gould · From: Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX

You can do some pretty good mastering in Audacity.
It has a decent hard limiter and EQ in the effects section.
The thing I notice with most of the people I know doing home recording is they tend to over produce the track. They don't give the instruments space in the mix both sonically and spacially. That can make a big difference in how a MIX comes across. Sometimes a instrument that sounds good by itself doesn't work in a mix. At every pro session I've asked questions of the engineer ,why this and why that and it gets down to physics most of the time. Different frequencies from the different instruments can cause artifacts like phase cancellation and shifting.
I could go on all day about different things that can effect how things sound together "Mixed"
_________________
A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I just did a CD for a singer that used Karaoke tracks. In one song (Lady) there was a spot with a very low frequency bass note (may have even been a bass with a bow) and mixing that with the singer caused some "intermodulation" distortion just at that one spot. The voice track was perfect, just the mixing of the vocal track and the two (left and right) Karaoke tracks. I used Goldwave and edited that exact spot with the low bass note and EQ'd it down so it didn't interfere.

It's not "mastering software" but I've been using the "Stereo Mastering" setup in Sonar 8 which includes the Boost 11 Peak Limiter set to "Final Mix".

Rick Hedges · From: Oregon, USA

It sounds like you're taking a stereo mix from the Yamaha mixer and running it into your soundcard. Assuming you don't have a problem with the 1 (stereo) or 2 (mono) cables running from the mixer to the soundcard, chances are the soundcard is the weak link.

Here's what I would do to test this: if your soundcard has digital I/O capability, borrow a good outboard AD converter from a friend and bypass the (inevitably cheap) converter on the soundcard. If you can't borrow a decent outboard converter, I would run the Yahama's stereo output into two channels of the Tascam. The Tascam probably has better converters than the ones in your soundcard. I bet using one of these two techniques you'll hear an improvement in sound.

Incidentally, I used to have a couple of the 20-bit ADATs but about 7 years ago ditched them in favor of an HD24. I can tell you from experience the converters on the HD24 are much, much nicer sounding than the old ADAT converters.

Rick

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

There are very few (none on systems with Integrated (on the motherboard) PC sound cards that have digital input. Some of the newer systems have S/PDIF output.

My old SoundBlaster Audigy 2 Platinum EX (Has external I/O box) does have optical S/PDIF but it's only one of a few models.

With the recent purchase of the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 firewire recording interface, that also has both coax and optical S/PDIF, along with the high end analog inputs this will be my external audio interface.

C. Christofferson · Posted 15 Mar 2009 3:41 pm

You may, if you haven't, check the optional input/record settings on the recorder. Sometimes even though it shows recording as a .wav file it's possible that it is set by default at something less than 44.1khz stereo, maybe 22.5 in order to use less memory. I know it's unlikely but I have seen that. Or else look at the properties of an already recorded mix and see if thats what it was recorded at.

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

C. Christofferson, Yes I've checked and I'm recording at 44.1, thx.

Jack, I'll double check my card. I do know it is not on the motherboard but that is all I recall at this point.

Rick I was thinking of doing exactly that. It's been a while since I used the Tascam but I don't remember quite the degradation when I went stereo out from that. Maybe that'll do the trick. BTW, I was really thinking about that HD24! Only problem is then I would definitely need a better mixer as well and those dollars start adding up!

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

If you're going to be wanting to make CDs of your finished mixes, I'd suggest mixing outside the computer to an Alesis Masterlink. The high-capacity versions are going for $799 new, much less used. they include some very useful mastering tools, sound great, and burn redbook CDs which you can then have mass produced, or make your own multiple copies.
I've used a lot of setups and keep going back to the Masterlink.

Rick Hedges · From: Oregon, USA

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

Wow!!

That Masterlink is exactly what I need! I'll watch a few on Ebay to see what the average used price is.

The only problem with my Yamaha mixer if I went to the HD24 is I'd be wasting a lot of tracks since I could only mix/play back 10, I believe. 10 tracks is fine for most of what I do anyway...it's really more the HD24 is "too much". But I really like the Alesis stuff, it rack mounts just like my 20-bit and I assume the hard drives are replaceable if they crap out (that happened with my Tascam).

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Yeah, Scott, the Masterlink hard drive is replaceable. In fact, you may find a used one with the smaller drive, and unless you keep a lot of projects on the drive, it will work just fine.

I usually use some software plugs across the main buss when mixing, like the PSP or Massey stuff mentioned, but lately I'm taking stems out through a T.L. Audio Fat Track, acting as an analog summing mixer, then on through a Nightpro Mastering EQ and a ART Pro VLA compressor into the Masterlink. A nice EQ and Compressor on the main bus or outboard should help a lot in the mix.

Rick Hedges · From: Oregon, USA

Scott,

The HD24's hard drives are hot-swappable - you just buy a drive caddy for around $20 for each hard drive you want to use. The caddy is basically a protective plastic case that encloses and protects the drive. The HD24 uses inexpensive IDE drives, so you can get lots of storage space for not much money.

As Mark noted, the hard drive on the Masterlink is replaceable, although it requires opening up the chassis so it's not quite so user-friendly as the HD24 in that regard. Another limitation is the OS only recognizes the first 30 gigs or so of space, so at this point, you'd probably want to buy the smallest new drive (i.e., cheapest) you can find. I did have the original hard drive on mine die a year ago, although I've certainly used the thing a lot in the 7 years I've had it.

Rick

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