Are Push-Pull Guitars Really Any Better?

David Doggett · Posted 7 Mar 2009 4:49 pm

Brad, I wasn't really paying much attention to the tone. All the guitars sounded fine with the amp set the way it was. And they all sounded very similar until I got to the p/p. I didn't really feel like any of them needed any special amp adjustments. I was mostly paying attention to the feel and action. But when I played that p/p the difference in tone just jumped out at me. It just had a liveliness of response that was unequaled. There is no way any amp adjustments would give any of the other guitars the sustain, rich harmonics, and string definition from low to high strings, and from low to high frets that the p/p had. It was like the difference between a pedal steel and a good lap steel. There was just a big difference in response and tone.

I don't play my p/p regularly. I prefer the precision action, easy setup changes, and light weight of my modern all-pulls, and I like the changeable pickup system of my MSA Millennium. The superior tone of the p/p would be a sort of self-indulgent thrill for myself that I don't think listeners would notice. And frankly, that bright, rich, aggressive tone is not always what I want for everything. I just don't have the time to always keep my current setup on the p/p and get the adjustment optimized. I'd rather be a player than a mechanic. If I had all the time in the world, things would be different, but I don't.

Brad Malone · From: Pennsylvania, USA

I'd rather be a player than a mechanic. If I had all the time in the world, things would be different, but I don't.<<

David, I'm 100% in agreement with you..I just like to treat my steel like a piano, put the sheet music on the stand and concentrate on the music and leave the mechanics to the builders...in fact, I have not even changed any strings for 18 months..but my Williams 600 does not break strings...I guess I should install new strings but wait, I have another song to play...maybe in a month or so from now I'll put some new strings on it..they still sound good to me.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

These discussions, always amuse me. It's strange how folks can hold onto Myths for so long.

Walk in a club backwards, and no one would know what brand steel was being played. Much less if it was a push pull, or an all pull, etc., etc.

That my friends is a fact. But! On the other hand, I'll bet they might come a whole lot closer in knowing what player might be playing!

Bottom line is, I think we all feel what we play is the best, or else we wouldn't be playing it in the first place.

Why is it we're seeing so many of these so called great sounding famous push pulls, up for sale if they're the best sounding steel, for prices far lower than what many others are going for?

Oh! I forgot! People that have the best sounding steels in the world, would rather sell them, to give others a chance at owning the best sounding steel, and they'd play something that wasn't all that good sounding! Yea Right..

Sometimes folks, we have to face reality. The Push Pull's Great Tone, went away, the day that Buddy Emmons quit playing one!!! But the Myth of the reason for the tone, lives on..

Buddy, is no Myth, and, as has been said, the one sitting behind the steel, makes all the difference in the world. Tone included.

Very Happy

Leonard Bick · From: Washington Court House, OH USA

I really enjoy these kind of topics. It's nice to hear so many different opinions and ideas. Push/pull's are like any other manufactured product. There's good and bad in p/p's, just like everything else that's produced, but you find a p/p that has the sound where the highs aren't piercing, there's no better sounding steel.
I have to disagree that tone is in the hands. Why doesn't Buddy Emmons sound the same on every different brand of steel that he plays? Does he not have the same hands? His technique is better than any other, including pitch, because of practice, not because his hands produce better tone.

You can tell by the sound, it's a p/p!

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i can't tell anymore. but i can tell if someone plays well...and i've heard that on many, many different brands!

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Amen on that Cris.

Fred Eddie-Quartey · From: Illinois, USA

Given all the debate about Emmons push-pull steels, has anyone compared the new Promat push-pulls to the Emmons push-pulls? Is the tone comparable/characteristic or are there distinct differences?

tomsteel · From: columbia/tn/maury

I am just an amatuer weekend player.I,ve played a LDG since 1975,that I bought new.It sounds wonderfull.I met a guy that had this old emmons that I would play at his house every now and then.It was kindof banged up but it sounded well,,,,Great...He was always taping me to try and learn how to play.When he would play it back,,my playing wasn,t that good,,,but the tone of that guitar was,,,,great.Even with old strings it had what we call tone to die for.I had a few other steels also and traded one for that sd10 pp.Playing out with it is so satifying.Although it is a tad bright,it is just what I think is needed when playing live.The eq of it cuts through just enough to really sound like a steel should.Everyone is differant as taste goes. The sd10 taht I have stays in tune very very well,I,ve played gigs outside where you cold almost see your breath,,,but the pp stayed right on the money the whole time.I,ve had it now for a couple of years and broke maybe two strings.Even when the strings are well past due to be changed,,,the tone is there and clear as a bell.Bobbe did some adjusting on it after I first got it.I almost had to pry him and Dan away from it they liked it so much.Anyway I am very very pleased with this pp.Thomas Malugin Columbia,TN

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

People are selling push pulls because they are a proven comodity that goes up in value every year. I know people who buy them, hold them for two years and make 15-20% profits. Now that we are having bad times people are selling their gold and push pulls for extra cash. They will be 15-20% higher in two years. Always have been. If you see a push pull going for "far lower than others are going for" let me know. I'll buy them all.

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

I think that's a smart idea.
Love 'em or hate 'em, Emmons p/p's are one of the few steels that are probably always going to appreciate in value, and are likely to become collectors' items in the future.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

ok just so I am clear, If I buy a couple of Push Pulls today, both Keven and Skip will buy them from me in two years and I can make a 20% profit.

Man that was easy !

Thanks guys !

T Very Happy

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

I am coming to the conclusion there is no "better". (There may be "worse"...I think most steel players, including myself, have played or owned brands they simply didn't care for). It also depends on how many you own. If you can afford the luxury of multiple guitars, why not own a couple PP's and a couple all-pulls? (Hey, it's just a recession).

But case in point:

I owned 2 Emmons PP's. Loved 'em. I actually preferred my S-10 loafer to my D-10 fatback, tone-wise. But I got tired of the tinkering/weight and sold them both. Went to my first all-pull. Ouch!! Thought I died and went to hell. Kept at it though, while attending weekly “PP Anonymous” meetings. It was around this time the price of PP's began to skyrocket. So…bought myself a refurbed D-10 ZB Custom and was a happy man again. VERY happy. Sold the evil all-pull. The ZB sounded so good to my ears, I liked it as much if not better than my Emmons. Like the Emmons, the sound seemed to “travel through” me. But again, reality sets in...this pig weighs more than my Emmons D-10, or at least it felt like it...even minor adjustments are a nightmare....

So last year I spring for a new D-10 Derby. I open the case and am inspired by it’s simple beauty. After setting it up, and with major trepidation, I lay the bar down on fret five and pluck strings 4, 5 and 6. I am immediately blown away by the warmth and clarity of tone. A few more minutes of simple chords and runs confirms my initial reaction – here’s an all-pull I can love. (Yes, yes, the ZB is an all-pull too, but a “classic” all-pull, not one of these new modern contraptions). A year later…the Derby is still set up…the ZB is in it’s case…BUT….the ZB is calling my name. I am once again craving “that tone”…Oh no, here we go again…

And THAT is the point of this rather long-winded tale. Tastes change, our ears change….temperature, humidity, amp settings, how we are using the volume pedal, which side of the bed we woke up on…and on and on. How many of us have experienced sitting down twice in the same day at the same steel and amp settings, sounding like Buddy one minute (well, maybe not quite) and like utter CRAP the next??

You will never get an argument from me that Emmons PP’s, Buds (and ZBs!!) are the holy grail of steels, tone-wise. There IS, most definitely, a “difference”. How big a difference depends on the individual and what they are striving for. I really don’t care if I can be fooled in a PP/all-pull “blind test” – listening to someone else play two guitars with my back turned is entirely different than sitting down and playing both yourself. And that is where the rubber meets the road. Life is full of trade-offs and deciding which steel to play is no different. For me, the Derby is my “Desert Island” guitar. It stays in tune, it’s easy to adjust (which is rarely required anyway), it has butter-like action, and it has a beautiful warm, rich and even tone. It’s a high quality modern instrument. But, if you are looking for “that sound”…”that feel”…”that experience”…..IMO, no amount of amp tinkering, pick-up swapping or EQing will get you there with a “modern” all-pull. If you want to drive a classic, then you gotta buy one. Some only want classics, others see the benefits of owning both…still others don’t see what all the fuss is about.

I think I just wasted 5 paragraphs essentially saying it’s all a matter of taste!

David Doggett · Posted 9 Mar 2009 8:01 am

I think the idea that p/p tone is all hype based on the fact that Buddy Emmons designed and played it is wrong. Sure, his name helped kick start it's reputation in the beginning. But if the instrument hadn't been so outstanding, that rep wouldn't have held up. He mostly hasn't played one in the last third of his career. Yet, based on the tone alone, many people still pay vintage prices and put up with the difficult mechanics. It's not necessary to place a value judgment of what is "best." The uniqueness of p/p tone (whether it is "best" or just different) keeps many players coming back to it, long after it is not particularly relevant who designed it or played it decades ago.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Scott, I agree 100%.

What I find somewhat bogus about threads that seek "the best" anything is that they set up zero-sum games. For one thing to be "the best," all the others must be, by definition, "NOT the best." Which leaves those who don't have "the best" up to the task of either 1. hanging their collective heads in peer group shame at their poor choices, 2. alternatively, defensively offering subjective evidence that "no, (insert item) ISN'T the best," or 3. realizing the whole thing is an exercise in opinion spouting and simply going on with their musical lives.

(insert curmudgeonly shrug and audible "sigh" here) Dudes... Rolling Eyes

I personally choose #3.

But, in the spirit of the game and as a long time Emmons player, I'll toss out some personal answers to some of the questions asked here:

Is a PP worth the extra money? Answer: To some people, yes... to others, no. Alternative question: Is a Corvette worth the extra money?

If PPs are so good, why do people sell them? Answer: for the same reasons people sell old Martin guitars, classic automobiles, precious artwork, anything of quality and value.

Does the undercarriage of a PP pose problems with making changes? Answer: to those players set in their copedent, no... to those who like to change frequently, yes.

Is working on a PP undercarriage difficult? Answer: to those who know what they're doing, no... to those who haven't a clue but proceed anyway, yes. Alternative question: Do you find working on your automobile's undercarriage difficult?

Will Tony Prior make 15-20% on Kevin Hatton in 2 years? Answer: Possibly, but have you followed the stock market in the last 18 months? Laughing

_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Stuart Legg · Posted 9 Mar 2009 3:26 pm

Push-pull is better than all pull. At least that's what she said.
That old Fender PSG with the cables has that unique Golden Gate Bridge sound.

Whip Lashaway · From: Monterey, Tenn, USA

I'll admit I haven't read all the replies and someone may have addressed this. Are they better? Depends on what you're using it for. A guitar, any guitar, is a tool. Different jobs require different tools. I own a 78 P/P. Would I take it on a road trip? No way! Why? Too heavy, too hard to setup and tear down, too long to tune, too long to change a string if I break one,(all compared to my other guitars), not to mention I'd be a wreck from worrying about somebody hurting it (since I consider it a collectable). Would I take it into the studio? Every chance I get!!! None of those concerns matter in that situation. In the studio I consider it the correct tool, on the road I don't. So, the question as asked cannot, in my opinion, be answered.
_________________
Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Whip
I can understand not taking a PP on the road because it might be a collectible, and I can understand "too heavy." For those two very reasons I took a Star guitar on tour with Gary P. Nunn and Michael Martin Murphey.

But in the interest of those inexperienced with Emmons Originals, MHO is that without a doubt assembling a PP takes no longer to accomplish than assembling an AP guitar. With either the actions are virtually identical. And changing strings isn't problematic at all either. With any guitar, you have to insert the string into the tuner shaft hole, then attach the ball end to the changer finger, then crank it tight.

If anything, the Emmons is easier to restring than is a Sho~Bud with slots on the changer fingers instead of pins for the ball ends.

If your Emmons is too hard to tune, that guitar probably is not mechanically set up correctly and needs some attention. An Emmons PP is one of the most stay-in-tune mechanisms ever made for pedal steel. My own PPs, all three, rarely if ever need the pedal screws tweaked. Changing string brands constantly is one situation where the pedal tuning might need adjusting, though. But that tension readjustment is necessary with all types of pedal guitars.

Another personl experience: in 1988 I had an Emmons PP stolen from me. Through a complicated set of circumstances I wrote about elsewhere on the Forum, I got it back in 2007. God knows what the guitar had been through... though the strings it had when it got stolen in 1988 were still on it..., but when I put a fresh set of strings on, the pedals and levers were still in tune.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Randy Gilliam · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

Yes They Sound Better and are Built Better Stay In tune better A Little Heavey Because they were Built With Real Wood and Steel Instead of Plastic and Alluminum.I Tryed Most Brands And That Is Why I Play a Emmons, You Will To When You Get one Or 2, Randy. Very Happy

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Mike Archer · From: church hill tn

WELL there are many good steels out there

both pp and AP....the reason some people

dont like pps is because (one reason) they dont understand how the tuning works....

my PP stays in tune and I have no trouble
with tuning.....but they can be VERY hard to tune
sometimes if they are not set up right

ive had 5 or 6 pps in my playing time and if
BRYAN Adams Sets a pp up it will be RIGHT
AND I MEAN RIGHT!!!!! Very Happy

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