MSA vs Sho-Bud/Emmons

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

I've seen a couple of comments about why the difference in resale prices of the old MSA's as compared to Sho-Bud And Emmons, with MSA being the cheaper of the three.

My theory of why this is so, is that some of the older MSA's used laminated wood, (plywood), in the body of the cabinet and this supposedly keeps them from sounding as good as the Sho-Bud or Emmons. I do not believe this to be true, but I think this perception does exist.

I remember in the late sixties when the Yamaha acoustic guitars came out, which were made of plywood, and people said that they were junk, and would never sound good; boy were they wrong. Try to find and old FG 180 Yamaha now. The Bluegrass guys love them and buy them up.

I think the same holds true for the MSA, I know they can sound great! It's the pickup and the hand of the picker that emanates the sound, not the guitar body. On a solid wood, steel guitar body, the wood is one half to three quarters of an inch thick, and the tone comes from the pickup and picker, not much from the guitar body. I will venture to say that in a blind test the laminate body guitars would be indistinguishable from the solid wood guitars!

The mechanics of the MSA's were and still are bullet proof. With good pickups and a talented picker they sound as good as any Sho-Bud or Emmons.

However, the price difference is there, and undeserved as it is, it will probably continue. Bill Duncan
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Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

The price difference is well deserved. Wood construction in a guitar makes a difference. Pickups make less of a difference than the construction materials and design of a guitar. Amplifiers make a far bigger difference than pickups. Bill, you can defend your opinion but the steel community recognizes the difference.

Duncan Hodge · From: DeLand, FL USA

Hello Bill,
From one Duncan to another Duncan, I really like the older lacquer MSAs. I played one at Billy Cooper's place in VA a few years ago. I'd love to own one someday.
Duncan to Duncan "out".
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Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Bill Duncan said:

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Amen Kevin.

As one player once said, everything on a PSG plays a role, some small and some large, in the sound of that guitar.

Also, it is true that much of the sound that comes out of a PSG is due to the players hands.

BUT....................................

That SAME player sounds different on different guitars and/or amps.

In other words, it is NOT only in the hands. If so Buddy would ONLY need a log stump and one string stretched across it using an amp with a 6 inch speaker with lo fidelity output, to get the SAME sound he got on his "blade" played thru whatever gear he used in any given application.

Buddy even stated right on this forum years ago when he was asked, "Why did you stop playing your Sierra?"

(paraphrasing)

"I love the Sierra, but I had a sound in my head, that I could not get out of it, so I went back to my old guitar".

Ya can't kick against that.

The MSA's simply do NOT sound good to many players' ears. And I am talking about many of the greats. There are players who DO like the sound of the older MSA's.

But most do not. To deny this, is in essence to bury one's head in the sand, and demand things be the way they want it, rather than the way things really are.

The price of any used item is almost always because of the demand. And why old MSA's simply do not sell for any where near what old Sho-Bud's and Emmons bring.

For the latter give out the sound (regardless of the player's hands), that most players wish to hear.

As an example:

I have sitting in my music room, a brand new Excel Superb model PSG, with an extra cost high quality PU. Right next to it is a 1980 Emmons P/P.

Only a tone deaf person could not hear the radical difference in sound between the two; simply by strumming accross the strings with a finger, using NO amp.

Some would say like my dear friend JD Sauser, "I like the Excel sound better". But.....MOST players would not say that.

Again why........

carl
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Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I am firmly convinced that many people do not have the ears to hear that "strum", but for those who can you don't even need an amplifier to identify the basic qualities in a pedal steel guitar. You can actually also look at the construction of a pedal steel and accurately predict the resulting sound qualities if you know about construction vs. sound.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Bill…..I appreciate your comments about MSA.

In comparison MSA made very few guitars in which we used Finnish plyboard. The reason we stopped using it was because of the extra weight, and we went to natural finish guitars. Even today I’ve never known anyone who could consistently identify a difference between the two when using the “blind fold” method you mentioned. I still maintain the same applies to many guitars when compared using the “blind fold” method.

I agree the older MSA guitars were heavier than most, but many will be surprised when they compare an older MSA when out of the case setup ready to play, with other guitars of the same era. We placed a high priority on a case to protect the guitar, and in so doing it necessitated a heavier case, which is why I believe MSA is considered as being heavier than most guitars. It was when both instruments were compared In the case the MSA was noticeably heavier.

The slight extra weight of an MSA (set up ready to play) over other guitars of the era is attributed to the integrated aluminum rail system completely around the bottom of the guitar. This in itself could make the old MSA slightly heavier, and to use your words, “bullet proof”.

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I have a '75 Classic D10 that is of laminated construction, and a '77 Classic SS which is solid maple, and has wood necks. The '75 is just a little brighter than the '77, which is as bright as my '75 Emmons P/P. As said in this thread before, the pickups don't make a lot of difference. I have 4 different sets of pickups for my new MSA's, and there is not enough difference in any of them to warrant the expense of different pickups.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and everyone has their own. I am working on a recording of "I Love You Because" playing a different guitar on each verse, and each chorus. I'll be anxious to see if the experts can tell which guitar I'm playing. The guitars are a MSA Millennium, a Legend, the '77 Classic, and the Emmons P/P, all through the same amp, with the same settings. I'll have it ready in a few weeks maybe.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The old MSA's usually sound different than an Emmons or Sho~Bud. This is due mostly to the guitar, but probably also somewhat due to the player. Most players only know one sound. Most players only appreciate one sound. And finally, most players only know how to get one sound. To tell an Emmons fanatic he oughta play an MSA is like telling a Tele fanatic he oughta play a Les Paul. It doesn't do it for them. Not all players are like that, though. I know players who have many different brands of guitars, and they like the sound of each for different reasons. (It's far more likely with straight players, for some reason.) Most steel players aren't like that, though. They fixate on one guitar, with one sound and tone, and that's their nirvana. They don't want to hear anything else, they don'tappreciate anything else, and they seem to take joy in letting everyone know that. Now, there's nothing wrong with only liking one guitar or sound. It does become a problem though, when they try to convince other players they should feel the same way, and that they're somehow missing something by not playing what they (those "other players") like.

Buddy does have an attachment to the old Emmons he designed, and rightfully so. But even he he does play other guitars, and seem to like them. I never really hear him always harping on one brand like some of the players here do.

Carl remembers Buddy saying..."I love the Sierra, but I had a sound in my head, that I could not get out of it, so I went back to my old guitar".

But the Buddy Emmons "Sierra quote" that sticks in my mind is...

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Amen, Donny. Also Darvin.

While I never heard "my" sound with the plyboard MSA's, I enjoyed the sound and feel of the MSA SS that is now owned and loved by Darvin W., and in fact, regretted parting with it.

There are, IMHO (and in spite of human nature, which I understand), a lot of guys who feel a personal attachment and sense of self-worth with their choice of guitar brand; therefore to praise that brand or see others praise that brand gives them a sense of increased self-esteem. Kind of like when your home team wins the Super Bowl or some such thing.

Like when I scratch my head when there's a question on the Forum about how to fix a problem with an Emmons/Sho~Bud/Fender/whatever, and someone chimes in "what you need to do is buy a (insert their brand here)."

Anyway, in the 1960's there were a lot of hit records recorded on Sho~Buds and Emmonses. I can see why MSA would want to distinguish itself from those other brands by offering a different sound, especially when considering what was happening in Texas during that late 60's period... a transition from the Nashville "corn" sound and more towards a Texas "jazz/swing" sound.

Then again, I could be way off-base with my verbosity. If so, just blow me off. Laughing

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Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

I have Emmons, ShoBuds, a Promat, and an older lacquer MSA which I bought from Carter Guitars. They all sound different but they all sound good. I changed the pickups out on the MSA to the BL710's, recommendation of Bobbe Seymour. I carried my MSA with me to Jeff Newmans home once and after playing if for a while, Jeff got up, set behind it and started playing it. I have a video of him doing so. Let me tell you, it sounded great. After playing it for a while Jeff told me that he was suprisingly impressed with it. They are heavier than others but they also keep their feet on the ground when playing them. Some of the other lighter ones I've had felt like they were off the floor a lot of the times. The mechanics of that guitar is also excellent and it's an easy system to make changes to. Point is, yes, the tone of them are different there is not a thing wrong with the tone.

Robert Harper · From: Alabama, USA

I let the player play the MSA universal that sold it to me the other day. The guitar sounded like it was supposed to sound. Having said that, the Fender/Shobud I own has a completely different sound. I also have found the digital delay makes MSA guitar sound completely different. Maybe a discussion should occur about the sound of the effects. Don't believe me play straight with no DD or other effect and hear the difference
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Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Bill Duncan: "However, the price difference is there, and undeserved as it is, it will probably continue."

Bill one explanation for that might be the difference between the numbers of different brands manufactured during the time frame you mentioned. MSA was producing over 200 guitars a month when they shut down (documented over 2600 a year). I would wager that Sho-bud and Emmons, combined, didn't reach that number, but I'm not certain. There are probably more MSA's that are marketable than the other makes, hence the price difference.

I have a MSA SS D-10 with Trutones in it that will match any other guitar I've ever heard, with the exception of the Millennium I sold, in the sustain and string separation areas, and several "pro's" that have played it have expressed that also.
Maybe it's all in what one hears, and don't they call that subjective? Rolling Eyes

phred
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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Phred
Maybe I'm not looking closely enough at the steel market lately, but I'm seeing relatively few 70's era MSA being sold lately. I'm thinking the excellent mechanics... and I believe MSA was the most precision-made steel in that era, fer sure... of those guitars mean those pickers that got 'em are holdin' on to 'em. Especially the lacquer cabinet guitars from the mid-70's, which were fine sounding horns with the SuperSustain p'ups in there.

Just as a side note but kinda off-topic, the first night I met Jr. Knight was when Alvin Crow (with me onboard) played the Longhorn Ballroom, around 1976. Either he was the bandleader, or maybe Clay Allen, but anyway, Jr. played one of those MSAs in Bb6. But there was no way at all you'd think it wasn't an E9 BuddyEmmons/LloydGreen NashvilleAllToHeck guitar. Then he'd play western swing. Laughing

He's a really great player, that Mr. Knight. Wink

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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Bruce Hamilton · From: Vancouver BC Canada

Maybe I can put a different take on this age old question. I started playing steel in the early 70's and at that time there was two camps. You either played an Emmons or a Sho-Bud to get the sound. As I was just starting out at that time my priority was to have a guitar that I knew would stay in tune so that I could eliminate that problem in my learning equation. MSA with it's precision design and quality control was definately the ticket. However when I got together with experienced players who incidently were playing mostly Sho-Buds I found that I could not get my MSA to sound anywhere near the same as their guitars. I can remember spending days endlessly A&Bing my guitar with theirs,turning all the knobs, trading amps,pickups and everything else trying to duplicate their sound with no luck. After more experimenting I noticed as Reece has pointed out, in the audience the sound really does not any sound any different. For a while that was a comfort. However every steeler I knew kept saying the only way to get the sound was get an Emmons or a Sho-Bud and I kept remembering all those failed attempts to make my guitar sound like the chosen two. Finally got a Sho-Bud and it was with a sense of relief. I could finally stop blaming my guitar for any bad sounds. I am not sure it was a good sounding Sho-Bud but if it sounded bad I was convinced that it was me not the guitar because that's the way it was. What I am saying is the steel guitar community is small,opinions are strong and conformity can take a lot of pressure off you while you are learning. I really love the sound of a push pull Emmons or a Sho-Bud but when I get the chance to play an old MSA I actually quite like them.
As a side note when I got my Sho-Bud my playing went right through the roof compared to the way I played previously. It was all because of the confidence I had with having a guitar that I felt had the sound and that part of the playing equation had been delt with. Maybe this is all in my mind. Very Happy

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Question for Mr Anderson,
The finnish plywood that some of the MSAs were made of. Is this the same as dieboard that is used in print shops/plastics industry to mount steel rule dies for cutting/trimming? I have heard it referred to as Russian plywood....Just curious. Bill

BTW, I love my MSA S12"The Universal"
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Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

Sho-Bud. SONNY.

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

The un-amplified sound of a pedal steel is not necessarily an indicator of a good sounding amplified pedal steel. An abundance of resonance could possibly cancel/overpower, some of the highs. Also, the resonance will only be heard very close to the guitar,( by the picker), unless the pickup has gone microphonic.

This could explain why persons some distance away from the guitar, who hear only the amplified sound, cannot tell much difference in the sound of pedal steel brands.
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Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Bill, are you a builder? What is your experience for such a statement? That statement is in direct contradiction to the builders I have talked to over the years and also not my experience. I am a builder. "An abundance of resonance could cancel some of the highs"?. Both The Emmons push/pull and the Zum are two of the most resonant guitars ever made. They reak with highs. Fulawka also. It sounds like you do not understand steel guitar construction. Resonance back fed into the strings will be picked up by the pickups. This is what is happening on an Emmons push pull and other guitars also. Guitars that are poorly designed have little resonance. If you cannot hear the difference in the sound of an Emmons Push Pull and a guitar with no resonance then that is a hearing problem. I can assure you that many players heart it, which is why the push pull is so popular. Zum also. The players above also recognize the difference in sound of different guitars.

Tom Quinn · Posted 7 Feb 2009 8:48 pm

I had an SS on loan in Tokyo for years. The pickup had been rewound by a former Sho-Bud employee who had moved back to Tokyo. That guitar sounded great! I didn't like the pedals and there was a "foreign" feel to a guy who had played Professionals and push/pulls exclusively, but it was a great guitar.

Sho-Bud = Ford
Emmons = Chevy
Fender = Plymouth
MSA = Nash Rambler

All good, but some got better luck at the drive-in...

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Yeh, didn't the Nash seats let down flat. Laughing

phred
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Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

Hey Kevin,

If you are asking if I build pedal steel guitars for a living, no I don't. If you are asking if I have ever built a pedal steel from scratch, the answer is yes.

I build archtop and flattop, accoustic and electric guitars as a hobby. I am no authority on sound other than what I hear. I do not consider myself a "builder".

However, I do know that you can listen with your heart, or your ears, and each will hear something different. Also, things sound different on different days.

If you have made up your mind, and decided that only certain brands sound good, then it doesn't matter how the other brands sound, to you, they will not measure up.

Also, I hope to learn from this site, as I am sure there are people here, who have much knowledge to share.
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Tom Quinn · Posted 7 Feb 2009 9:51 pm

I don't get the weight thing. I actually prefer a guitar that has weight because it won't walk or flex on you.

I am a major vintage guitar guy, owning literally hundreds of guitars -- acoustic and electric -- over the years. I am wary of pickups making a big difference. I've only owned seven different pedal steels, so I don't claim to be an expert on their construction.

But in the case of that old SS, the pickup made a BIG difference. To me the old SS guitars are hugely undervalued.

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

Duncan Hodge · From: DeLand, FL USA

Hello Bill
Scotch/Irish actually. Duncan is my father's mother's birth name. From what I understand my people started in Ireland (couldn't make it there), went to Scotland (where we were also dismal failures), back to Ireland (hated for being Protestant, as well as for being miserable failures), then to South Carolina USA, where we finally found out niche amoung the palmettos and swamps of the low country.
I can't wait to see some pictures of your new self-made steel. You are apparantly from the part of the Duncan family who were able to learn how to use tools and make something of themselves.
Have a great day in NC.
Duncan to Duncan out.
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