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Topic: Confused about a chord |
Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2008 4:11 pm |
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The following chord(s) have been giving me a fit lately. Can anyone shed a little light on this?
Pedals A, B & E-lower.
At the 12th fret, on strings 8, 7, 6, 5, the pedal-shape AB&E-lower creates the following 4 chords.
II m6, notes D#, F#, A, C# = degrees 6, 1, b3, 5.
VII m7b5, notes D#, F#, A, C# = DEGREES 1 b3 b5 7.
V9, NOTES D#, F#, A, C# = degrees 3, 5, b7, 9
bII 7b9#5, notes D#, F#, A, C# = degrees b7, b9, 3, #5.
What are the many uses of this pedal-shape? I realize its a half diminished chord-among other things, and so can be a little weird. I get the V9th shape-its just a V7 with the A pedal added. And, I've seen the shape notated as a bII 7#5 when passing from a pedals-down major chord to the V9th chord two frets below.
I don't understand the naming conventions though, like, is it a m7b5 or a 7#5, or a II m6 or what and when?
thanks for any help. |
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Michael Stover
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 13 Nov 2008 4:47 pm
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That's the great thing about stacked minor thirds--so many uses!
Rarely do you see a V chord with a natural 9th. The dominant (V) chord is always trying to resolve to the one. Raising(#9) or flattening(b9) the 9th achieves this. You could partially raise your A pedal to get the b9...
As it is, I'd say the handiest use of that chord would be iim6 in the key of E, or iim7b5 in the key of C#. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 13 Nov 2008 5:01 pm
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B9 Blues
Last edited by Bo Legg on 13 Nov 2008 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Michael Stover
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 13 Nov 2008 5:04 pm
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| ...or I9 in the key of B, as Bo said. |
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Danny Bates
From:
Fresno, CA. USA
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Bo Legg
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Posted 13 Nov 2008 5:34 pm
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Most of the time a player finds the chord on the Steel to use in the song instead of trying to find a song to fit the chord.
This chord as a 9th chord is a great sub for about any chord depending on where you place the bar. It can be sub as a major, minor, dim, dom7, aug7 or about any relative chord for that matter. |
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Danny Bates
From:
Fresno, CA. USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2008 5:37 pm
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Great point Bo  |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2008 2:35 pm
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Okay, I think I see what's going on here... You're all conspiring to make my head explode. But then again, I did ask for it.
I think I'm going to put this one aside for a while and focus on the first six diatonic chords and come to this one later.
Thanks for the help. |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 14 Nov 2008 5:04 pm
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Phil,
Don't give up. That grip is one of my favorites.
The grip will have different names depending on what the BASS note is doing underneath the chord. And I'm not talking about the lower strings of a conventional 10 string, but the actual BASS note that a bass player would provide.
The best way to learn about this grip is to start using it in some simple progressions below using strings 8 7 6 5 for our pedals AB and Eb lower grip, and 8 6 5 for the other chords.
It will help tremendously to have a bass note underneath. Record one, use a looper pedal, or have a friend play it. There's really no substitute to having a bass note in there to hear how it changes the function of that grip.
1. As a Dom9 chord: (key of C)
Cmaj (3rd fret peds down), to
C9 (1st fret AB and Eb lower), to
Fmaj (1st fret ped up)
2. As a Min6 chord: (key of E)
Amaj (5th fret ped up), to
Amin6 (3rd fret AB and Eb lower), to
E major (3rd fret AB and F raise)
More Advanced:
3. As a min7b5, 7b9#5, and min6 (key of Gmin)
Amin7b5 (6th fret AB and Eb lower), to
D7b9#5 (9th fret, AB and Eb lower), to
Gmin6 (13th fret, AB and Eb lower)
Don't give up, take it slow, and reap the rewards of practice.
Last edited by Joshua Grange on 14 Nov 2008 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 14 Nov 2008 5:10 pm
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And as an aside, you may already know this but it's worth mentioning if you don't:
Try playing a C major chord, then have someone play an A note underneath it.
It changes that C major to an A min7, even though you haven't changed a thing.
I believe that relates to the essence of your original question. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2008 5:15 pm
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Here is the basic two-five-one progression ( II7 - V7 - I ) in C major
Next, the same in A minor (note the first chord is the b-minor-seventh-flat-5, also called B half-diminished or Bm7b5.) This is the most common garden variety m7b5 chord, because it occurs naturally whenever you do 2-5-1 in a minor key.
Here is the same progression transposed up 4 half-steps, 2-5-1 in C sharp minor. Note these are exactly the notes that Phil asked about because these are open strings on the steel guitar E9 tuning. You would have to half-pedal (or use a "split") to play the B-sharp.
Now, for something completely different, here, as the first chord, is the same chord, sort of, in a different context, to wit, the Tristan chord. The intervals are the same, and at first glance it may look like an F half diminished chord. That would be more apparent if I had spelled it with E-flat instead of D-sharp, and A-flat instead of G-sharp. In that case, it would be a II7 of E flat minor, and the normal resolution would be to Bb7 and Ebm. But here it resolves to E7 and A minor. So the first chord of this 2-5-1 progression is a B chord, with the flatted fifth in the bass, a major 3rd, flat 5, and seventh lowered all the way down to G-sharp (diminished seventh interval altho this is not a diminished seventh chord.)
On the second beat, the G# moves up to A and we can hear it as a more normal B7-5 chord.
When Wagner begins Tristan und Isolde with this chord, you just know somebody is gonna die before it's over. And just to keep you in suspense, he plays the 2-5 many times but never resolves it to the A minor that you expect.
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 15 Nov 2008 5:23 am
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Tristan und Isolde! real musical notes and everything!
I had to get my virtual keyboard down from my head to grok the finality of the death predicted by the last chord, the stuff that makes Wagner work for me.
Skip the vowels, let's hear the consonants.
Wagner didn't write for your fancy Nashville notation, that's for sure, just pure sound.
Maybe we can parse 'Der Meistersinger' next, tromping down the musical staircase to reach resolution at the landing, which never comes.... 
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Phil Halton
From:
Holyoke, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2008 7:07 am
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Joshua, your example, among the many great responses, rang a bell. I believe what your first example says is that sliding back two frets into the AB&E pedals shape works when moving from a pedals-down V to an I, or a pedals-down I to a IV. It serves as the 9th in those cases.
And, in the second example, when moving from an open position IV to a I chord, it works as the IV m6 chord.
As to your third example, I haven't quite parsed it out yet. But, It appears that when on the root position of any key,engaging AB&E makes the VII m7b5 chord. Dropping back one fret from the root position, it gives the I 7b9#5 chord, and back two frets, it gives the I m6 chord. Am I right so far?
There is a lick that uses this I 7b9#5 chord when moving from a pedals-down major chord to its AB&E 9th two frets below. Basically, its:
1) thumb on string 8 of the AB major,
2) slide back one fret and engage E-lower lever,
3) arpeggiate the upper 3 strings of the chord,
4) Slide back one fret to the 9th chord.
Would it be correct to say that, in key of D,at the 5th fret, this would be written as:
(fret 5, w/AB)D to
(fret 4, w/AB&E) A 7b9#5 to
(fret 3, w/AB&E) D9th.
I'm not very good with minor keys yet, so I've got to work on that third example of yours a bit.
I know that the names are just labels for the sounds, But I want to understand that system of naming as well as the uses of the sounds themselves. I think if I can crack that nut, it'll all start to make alot more sense.
Thanks for the help. |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 15 Nov 2008 12:57 pm
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
Now, for something completely different, here, as the first chord, is the same chord, sort of, in a different context, to wit, the Tristan chord. The intervals are the same, and at first glance it may look like an F half diminished chord. That would be more apparent if I had spelled it with E-flat instead of D-sharp, and A-flat instead of G-sharp. In that case, it would be a II7 of E flat minor, and the normal resolution would be to Bb7 and Ebm. But here it resolves to E7 and A minor. So the first chord of this 2-5-1 progression is a B chord, with the flatted fifth in the bass, a major 3rd, flat 5, and seventh lowered all the way down to G-sharp (diminished seventh interval altho this is not a diminished seventh chord.)
On the second beat, the G# moves up to A and we can hear it as a more normal B7-5 chord.
When Wagner begins Tristan und Isolde with this chord, you just know somebody is gonna die before it's over. And just to keep you in suspense, he plays the 2-5 many times but never resolves it to the A minor that you expect.
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Thats really cool. So he's approaching the seventh of the ii, and the fifth of the V by a half step below, right?
I feel a weekly column coming on Earnest!!! |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 15 Nov 2008 1:20 pm
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| Phil Halton wrote: |
| Joshua, your example, among the many great responses, rang a bell. I believe what your first example says is that sliding back two frets into the AB&E pedals shape works when moving from a pedals-down V to an I, or a pedals-down I to a IV. It serves as the 9th in those cases. |
Yes, exactly, serves as the DOMINANT 9 chord.
| Phil Halton wrote: |
| And, in the second example, when moving from an open position IV to a I chord, it works as the IV m6 chord. |
Right again.
| Phil Halton wrote: |
| As to your third example, I haven't quite parsed it out yet. But, It appears that when on the root position of any key,engaging AB&E makes the VII m7b5 chord. Dropping back one fret from the root position, it gives the I 7b9#5 chord, and back two frets, it gives the I m6 chord. Am I right so far? |
Yes, right again.
| Phil Halton wrote: |
There is a lick that uses this I 7b9#5 chord when moving from a pedals-down major chord to its AB&E 9th two frets below. Basically, its:
1) thumb on string 8 of the AB major,
2) slide back one fret and engage E-lower lever,
3) arpeggiate the upper 3 strings of the chord,
4) Slide back one fret to the 9th chord.
Would it be correct to say that, in key of D,at the 5th fret, this would be written as:
(fret 5, w/AB)D to
(fret 4, w/AB&E) A 7b9#5 to
(fret 3, w/AB&E) D9th. |
Yes, absolutely, technically. But basically you're just approaching a seventh chord from a half step above. So you can also look at it simply as a D to an Eb9 to a D9. It's called a tri-tone substitution. You can interchange that Eb9 (or Eb7, same function) for the A7 chord, because they are a tri-tone apart, and share the same 3rd and 7th, which are usually the two most important tones in any chord. See for yourself!
| Phil Halton wrote: |
| I'm not very good with minor keys yet, so I've got to work on that third example of yours a bit. |
That example uses whats known as a ii-V, or two five progression, which is just an interesting way to get to the I chord. In a minor key, there are certain modifications that have to be made, so the ii chord becomes a half diminished, and the V chord usually has a b9. The minor 6 chord at the end is just for flavor and to illustrate the many uses of that grip.
| Phil Halton wrote: |
| I know that the names are just labels for the sounds, But I want to understand that system of naming as well as the uses of the sounds themselves. I think if I can crack that nut, it'll all start to make alot more sense. |
It sounds like you're well on your way! Ear training would help A LOT. Also, there is a certain protocol about when to name things #5 and when to call it b13, and it depends on the octave of those altered tones. Check it out and that will probably clear up a lot of things.... |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 15 Nov 2008 4:43 pm
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| Joshua Grange wrote: |
I feel a weekly column coming on Earnest!!! |
Bring it on.
I think you're right on, Joshua. Just earlier today I was hearing someone say if she was taught the math behind music she'd have done better.
I'm not a nut on notation, but seeing the 'system' expressed in its relative numbers is a leg up, with how it sounds being the goal.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2008 6:54 pm
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| Joshua Grange wrote: |
Thats really cool. So he's approaching the seventh of the ii, and the fifth of the V by a half step below, right? |
Right; these notes are appogiaturas, notes that are next to the chord tone, and resolve to the chord tone. It creates tension and release as the listener waits for the appogiatura to resolve.
We steel players use this all the time when we mash the pedals, for example A chord where C# is the chord tone and B is the appogiatura:
or two appogiaturas at once, like this that we do every day:
which we hear as an A chord, even before the resolution.
Probably the most common appogiatura is suspended 4th, resolving to 3rd.
Or, can be fun to surprise the listener by resolving in an unexpected way. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2008 6:59 pm
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| Joshua Grange wrote: |
I feel a weekly column coming on Earnest!!! |
....OK ...Tristan is filled with appogiaturas. Some folks think there are too many of them; not me.
After starting the overture with the above example twice, Wagner gives us yet another voicing of the half-diminished chord, with yet another resolution. Like all good music, this one defies my powers of analysis. One way to look at it would be to call it Dm7b5 resolving to B7.
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Bob Parins
From:
Brooklyn, New York, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2008 11:34 am Another way to play the chord in question on U-12 guitars
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Hi Guys-
I've had a great time reading this thread. Great chords, great ideas! I've been playing through this chord as I read the thread and I realized there's another way to do this. Pedal 7 on a Universal setup:
On open strings 6, 5, 4, and 3 with the 7th pedal we get the exact same notes as we do on the 7th fret with AB and E lever. ( same octave/inversion too ) If we think of that as F# 9, we're also getting the Root note on the 7th string, and a lower octave of the b7 on string 8. |
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