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Topic: Universal vs. Extended and Expanded E9 - I'm so torn! |
John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 2:40 pm |
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First of all let me say I am not confused, I know the difference. I am just torn.
I have been playing XE9 for several years, but I left my latest s-12 in Uni tuning to fool around, and I now see why players like the low range of that tuning without a D on string 9. However having to use a pedal or lever to get that note in that octave limits the combinations available.
As far as the pedals go, there are some nice voicings available with pedals 5,6,7 as Jeff Newman calls them. But of course there are other useful changes one could put on to expand the versatility of an XE9.
What's a mother to do?! I realize that no one can answer this question for me, just felt a desire to vent.
IMHO the ultimate PSG dilemma has never been expressed better than this post by David Doggett in another thread:
| David Doggett wrote: |
Every change is a missed opportunity for another change. Trade offs and compromises are required. Choices have to be made.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 3:15 pm
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That is the question, John....
I'm convinced that - should I go to a 12-string single-neck - I'd have to keep that low D without having to push a lever to get it. thus leaving as many options as possible.
There are, of course, any number of experienced players who will swear by the Uni principle, and declare that I wouldn't miss that D string.
If I made the switch tomorrow, I'd go with the Ext E9 and that D string, but I've never sat at a universal, so I lack the experience to make a fully educated judgment.
For now, though, I'm convinced!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 3:19 pm To "D" or not to "D"
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Bill Patton
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 4:42 pm
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| I'll tell you, my decision to get an extended E9 rather than a Uni had a lot to do with not wanting to re-learn the first ten strings. That way I can go back to my D-10 or any random E9 steel and not have to adjust for the D string. I think a lot of music comes down to muscle memory; even though I hardly ever play that D string, my hands have learned to skip over it. Usually. |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 7:06 pm
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Here is one way to get the Universal with the exact E9.
top down-
F#-D#-G#-E-B-G#-F#-E-C#-B-E-B...Use the knee lever that drops the 2nd string D# to D along with added
raise on the 9th string C# to D. BE has experimented with this for a 12 string. This way you have the D and dont lose the important B and still have the B6 universal side with the Eb knee lever.Simple..al. 
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 7:13 pm
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Not quite that simple for me, Al - I want both knees and feet free for other pulls while using the D string as a root-note.
The eternal quest goes on.....
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 7:53 pm
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"TO D OR NOT TO D"
John, that was funny.
I personally think you'd love a 13 or 14 string. |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 8:00 pm
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| A 13 string wouldn't solve the dilemma, as the benefit of the Uni that I am interested in is the lack of a string between the 8th E and the B below. At this point I'm not too worried about the low low B. |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 8:14 pm
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| Oh, I thought you wanted that D in there. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 10 Nov 2008 9:42 pm
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| John Groover McDuffie wrote: |
| ...the benefit of the Uni that I am interested in is the lack of a string between the 8th E and the B below. |
Fortunately, I had never made much use of the D string on E9, so having it on a lever for occasional use didn't bother me when I switched to uni. On 10-string E9 my thumb had learned to always skip the next-to-last string (except on those rare occasions I wanted a D), but on Ext. E9 (which I tried before trying a uni), that D became "some string down there in the middle of a bunch of others," and my thumb just couldn't take the confusion. When I tried a uni, that whole problem dissappeared, and I just felt much freer on the low strings. And when you play in B6 mode, that D is a useless string mucking up the heart of the 6th tuning.
A lot of this choice depends on what type of music you intend to play. If it will mostly be country, and you make a lot of use of the D string, then Ext. E9 may be your best bet. For country E9 I don't make much use of the low strings of a uni, and I could just as well stay with 10-string E9. But if you want to make extensive use of the 6th mode (and you don't want a D10), you really need a uni. I look at it as trading the single D string for the whole 6th neck tuning. Once I tried the B6 mode, that trade was a no brainer for me.
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| At this point I'm not too worried about the low low B. |
Ah, but you don't know what your are missing. If you raise that 12th string B to C# on your A pedal (just like the Bs on strings 9 and 5), that provides the low root for the A pedal minor position. That gives you the low power chord (strings 12, 10, 9) for minor blues and jazz, and over two octaves of minor pentatonic notes (releasing the A pedal gives you the b7 on strings 9 and 5). Since I love blues-based jazz, that has become a more important jazz home base for me than the 6th neck mode. Move down a fret and add the B pedal and you have V. On LKV I raise string 7 a half-step, which makes that a V7. From the A pedal minor tonic position, if you release the A pedal and go up two frets you have IV, two more frets up is another V. If you keep the A pedal down at those IV and V frets, it makes those M7s. So the A pedal gives you a movable M7, so useful in jazz. From the A pedal minor tonic position, if you add the F lever and move down two frets, you have the bVII, and three frets down from that is the V. So holding the A pedal down and griping strings 12, 10, 9, you can march up and down the neck on the pentatonic frets for a power chord pentatonic scale - dynamite for blues, rock and jazz. I couldn't live without that low B string.
On Ext. E9, some people lower the low E to C# on the A pedal, but it doesn't have the same tension, punch and sustain as raising the uni low B string to C#. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 12:28 am
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| If you haven't tried the universal the only way to know is to try it for a while - long enough to be sure. Everything else is conversation. Come over to the house and I'll let you sit down to my rig and I'll run you through the changes.I would have never switched from a D-10 to a uni if Greg Leisz hadn't loaned me his Sierra long enough for me to woodshed and play a few gigs to be sure I was sure. I wouldn't obsess over the D string. If you have at least 8+6 or better and the 9th & 10th string 3 fret pulls I was telling you about - it's really not a compromise. You really can have it all. Check out my Excel. A loaded keyless 12 string is a slick package. |
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 3:14 am
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Hi Roger, firstly sorry I couldn't make any gigs to see you with "Fatso" Would have been nice to see you and Billy Bremner again. He did quite a few dep jobs with me and Julie in the late 70's. I managed to get to the benefit do for Roger Dean, and thought I'd see you there, but I think your playing schedule unabled you to be there. Was nice to meet up with Gerry Hogan again and Gus York. Re the 12 string, I got my old 'Bud S-12 the day after you, I and many others saw Reece Anderson above the "Travellers Rest" in London. This was 1977 and it was an extended E9th with the "D" ....I played this until 1982 when I discoverd a universal tuning off one of Scotty's magazines. I had a friend machine up the extra pedals and knees and on the day of picking it up, I had to go straight to a gig and play the dam thing  By the end of the gig I was totally used to the missing D and getting it on a lever. I know you want that open D there, but why not if you get a chance try a universal somewhere...you "may" like it, you may not....at least you'd get another insite by actually trying one for a few hours. If it's still a no no for you on the D note, it's back to your thinking cap. Wishing you and Suzie in advance a happy and above all healthy Christmas. Keep the equiptment light  we're both pushing on now 
Micky Byrne United Kingdom
www.micky-byrne.co.uk
Last edited by Micky Byrne on 11 Nov 2008 3:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 3:34 am
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David wrote:
"A lot of this choice depends on what type of music you intend to play. If it will mostly be country, and you make a lot of use of the D string, then Ext. E9 may be your best bet..."
I respectfully disagree. I like using the D as a root-note. Together with A and B or B and C pedals one has access to major 7th and major ninth chords, and the 9th 'lower' opens other doors. While they may occasionally appear in the genre, I don't see those changes as typically 'country'.
I do feel that seeing that D string simply as a passing note to be avoided more often than not is to miss its true potential. For me there's a wealth of extended chords - vital for me when tackling music that is closer to modern pop than country.
Michael confirms what I said earlier, however - no-one can be sure until they've spent some time at both tunings. As I've said before, I can't see a substitute for having the D AND having both knees free to 'alter' those chords, but I could be wrong.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 3:45 am
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Hey, Micky!!!
Roger Dean's night clashed with our rehearsal schedule, and I was stuck up in darkest Suffolk for those few days with no car! I'm sorry I missed it - he was a lovely man and a fine player.
One day soon I will try the Uni - I've prevaricated far too long already and time, as you say, is not on our side! As I said just now, though, I'll take some convincing to do away with that string.....
Best regards to you, too - I promise we'll hook up next time I come over.
(PS: Speaking of which, I'm seeing the Doctor tomorrow about a suspected hernia - maybe from lifting that Emmons into the overhead bin on my recent flights....?  )
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 4:11 am
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Hi again Roger....re the hernia,if it's an inguinal (groin)hernia, the word I've found is "OUCH" ...well, for me anyway!! As you know I'm immune suppressed and takes me far longer to heal. Being a transplant reciepient they used titanium staples on the internal "mesh" repair, as it's more "friendly" to human tissue. For you they may use normal stitches for the repair. Some guys I've met have sailed through the op and back working within a month....I always got the short straw Had it in June, and still hurts. Docs say there may be a trapped nerve so we'll see when I see the surgeon again early next year. i am still doing the odd gig, but take my time lifting and have my amps, Evans and Nashville 400 in head/speaker combinations. Even my Carter uni which is light is in two cases now. Oh to be young again 
Take care mate.
Micky Byrne United Kingdom
www.micky-byrne.co.uk |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 12:33 pm
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Hey "Groover", I got my first S-12 ShoBud when I was in SoCal near the end of '77 and played the extended E9 for a year or two before deciding to try the Universal route. I played that tuning for about 20 years or so until I just one day decided to try something different as I've always been a lead guitarist first who just "doubled" on steel. I changed my set up to an E9/6 more or less. What it is, is basically an extended E9 with the 2nd and 9th strings tuned to C# and I've never been happier! The only thing I ever used that low B string for was to play the ride on "Nightlife" using the "BooWah" pedal and that's it..... I like my set up much better and it's far more versatile in my opinion. I have a couple of the B6th changes left such as raising the 5th and 6th strings a whole tone. The pedal next to that lowers the 7th string F# to F and raises the 12th string E to F.
I have my LKR raising both the 2nd and 9th C# strings to D. I lower my Es on RKR and lower then on RKL. With my 9th string tuned to C#, when my Es are lowered it's the same interval in B6th as the F# (7th) string is in E9. I'll never go back, not in this lifetime. I remember when I was playing the Uni that I didn't play in the lower registers much but with this setup I use the bottom six strings a bunch!........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 12:39 pm
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Hi, Jerry
I still have your copedant (you were kind enough to send it to me a while back) in my 'Pending' file - I'm still pondering the whole business, but your 'pulls' make a lot of sense!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 2:32 pm
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My take on the D strang thang, with respect to S12U...
There are like 170 billion places to get 7th chords on an S12U, so you don't need a seperate string for that purpose.
Anything else requiereing a separate D string I've found I can find like 5 other positions to play it where no separate D string is needed.
I also love the tonal-motion sound of the E>D and/or B>D swell on strings 8 or 9.
If your gut is telling you you need a D, then definitely go with the D, though.
No worries either way.
In the bigger picture (playing a gig on steel), the D string is the least of our worries, eh?!.
You could play 5 sets of hard core country without ever touching it and no one in the band or audience would even know. |
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Jeff Hogsten
From:
Flatwoods Ky USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2008 2:58 pm
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| I would go with a 12 in heartbeat if they sounded like a ten, anyone solved that problem yet |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2008 12:18 pm
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| Jeff Hogsten wrote: |
| I would go with a 12 in heartbeat if they sounded like a ten, anyone solved that problem yet |
Dude, C'mon maaan... it's the same answer...
Nobody in the audience, or most bands/singers for that matter, will ever notice what brand/model/etc of steel/amp/etc any steel player is using.
There is no problem whatsoever with whatever choice anyone makes. |
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Jeff Hogsten
From:
Flatwoods Ky USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2008 12:50 pm
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| I couldnt disagree more. I was at Jimmie Crawfords house one time and a steel maker put a add in a trade mag saying if you could tell the difference in their model and a paticular other model they would give you one. He called and ask if he could do it over the phone. Maybe you cant listen to a Buddy Emmons album that he used a push pull on and then one where he played a sierra and tell the difference but I can. Ive tried out several push pulls 12's and none of them had a sound I liked. Ive had the likes of Crawford, which is why he never built a 12, and several other top pros in nashville tell me they would go with a 12 but the tone is different. Sorry your welcome to your opinion but I will have to disagree when you say you cant tell a difference. Im not saying Ive never heard a good 12 but I play a push pull and Ive never found one that sounds as good as a ten, maybe there is one somewhere but to say you cant tell a difference, sorry you can. There would probably be people in the audience that couldnt tell if you were out of tune either, that doesnt mean you shouldnt tune |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 12 Nov 2008 1:07 pm
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Jeff, you're dead wrong about Crawford never having built a 12 stringer. One of the guys I knew in SoCal in the early eighties ordered an Emmons S-12 direct from Jimmy which had the Crawford Cluster plus 6 floor pedals, one of which was right beside the volume pedal.
Also, you CAN'T tell the difference in a 10 string and a 12 string guitar. If Buddy E used the 12 string he played on the "Rainbow" album and did the same tune with a ten string, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, and that's all there is to that!......JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2008 1:40 pm
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After 25 years of S-12 E9th, I went to a D-12X. I love the D string so much, I added it to my C6th!!
| Jeff Hogsten wrote: |
| I would go with a 12 in heartbeat if they sounded like a ten, anyone solved that problem yet |
I used to play an S-12 Emmons push-pull. Sounded just like a ten string to me.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jeff Hogsten
From:
Flatwoods Ky USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2008 2:21 pm
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| Crawford never built a 12 string JCH is what I meant and thats not all there is to it, when people like Crawford says there is a difference there is a differnce IM not saying you cant get a 12 to sound good but there is a difference. Why did Buddy go back to a ten, the only differnce could be sound. Im am seriously considering a 12 myself but the sound is different. Bud CArter plays a 12, call and ask him if his 12 sounds different than the ten. I ask John ar carter that question once want to know the answer, yes it does |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2008 3:52 pm 12 vs 10
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I'm sure that 12 string guitars sound different, since you can't change one thing without everything else in the Universe changing to some degree - detectable or not. However, I'm sticking with a 12 either way, so discussion of the tonal merits of 12 vs 10 string guitars are off topic here.
All other comments above are much appreciated.
Jerry, I have actually been thinking that tuning strings 2 and 9 to a C# would be cool, with a knee lever with a 1/2 stop to raise them both to D and then to D#. I don't know if the pulls on both strings can be balanced to make the 1/2 tone raise and full tone raise both come out in tune. Hmmmm..... |
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