My latest crazy P/P idea

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

For lowers for a P/P, instead of putting the little compensating springs at the bellcrank, could one put them down between the collar and a spacer where the rod meets the changer? My thinking is that they would be more accessible there to install and remove, for instance to fine tune spring lengths.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

(I am clarifying what I wrote before and where I mistakenly wrote bellcrank swivel instead of rod)

I think you would have some lower rods bouncing out of the finger holes and you could lose the springs unless you used extra parts to trap the end of the rod on the other side of the finger.

By the way, the first Emmons pull rods were connected to the finger hole by an actual spring, not a hook bent piece of spring wire.

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

Since we are on the topic of push pulls, why doesn't somebody make a bellcrank with more than one pulling hole? That way you could time the pulls better, and hopefully do away with the compression springs. It's such an obvious idea, I know people must have tried it...Jerry

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

Jerry, funny you should mention the bellcrank idea. I've been wondering why someone doesn't put a modern all pull system under a P/P with a "reverser" down by the changer for the lowers. I've heard that Hal Rugg was working on this idea for a P/P at one time, and I know of someone else who may be working on some ideas like this.

For quicker pulls, I have seen "idler" P/P bellcranks made with an additional hole for a swivel closer to the cross shaft. There's a Sho Bud part that is even better, as drilling out an Emmons bellcrank doesn't leave a lot of meat around the new hole. I've had good results extending P/P bellcranks with a little cutting and welding, rather than using an idler, but modern bellcranks with multiple pull options would be better still, although I think you'd probably still need compensating springs.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

Chris,

Wouldn't the other collar on the rod after it goes through the rod guide keep it from jumping out of the finger hole? My S10 is pretty easy to work on. Maybe I'll fool around with this idea and see if it works. I may be missing something. If it was such a good idea someone would have done it years ago. Like the genius (and I mean that) who designed the P/P in the first place.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Peter, if you pull the finger with your finger to test the lower, the rod will be more inclined to fall out if the spring tension is at that end. With the compression spring tension at the bellcrank end, where you can have an extra inch of rod passed through the swivel, you are less likely to have the problem of losing a spring.

The Marlen aluminum bellcranks that were machined from Emmons and Marlen knee lever stock had two swivel locations on one end and a single on the other.

When I redid a Marlen pull release years ago I machines some very long bellcranks to speed up some things.

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

How about a clutch system on the bellcrank so a push pull can have splits? Basically it would slip when a lower is actuated. No more string raise priority?

For idea purposes, below is a picture of a disassembled gear designed to slip under torque.

Edited because I wrote "half stops" when I meant "splits"

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

richard burton · From: Britain

The bellcranks are all the same height because some pull rods (eg fourth and fifth string) go through two bellcranks.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I recently extended a 1st string bellcrank so the change could be make from F# to G#.

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

Hi Bent
I don't have the skills to make a bellcrank, but I have a couple of extras. I'm at the Army Navy Club this Friday, from 8 to 12. No cover. I'll bring one down with me in case you show up.
Timing the 3rd and 6th strings gives me the most trouble, as the pull required for the 3rd is much longer than the 6th. Those strings only go through one bellcrank (I think)...Jerry

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Peter, in cases where I need all the travel I can get but still need a compression spring, I use a lockwasher between the spacer and set collar at the changer end of the push rod and carefully time the travels. The washer provides a slight amount of compression.
Jerry

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Erv, since you have tried and/or own/ed, more than a few pedal steels.

Have there been any major changes, in any of the Changer Systems some manufactures are using now, or not all that major, in your opinion?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Don,
I'm not familiar with a lot of the different manufacturers but it seems like the companies keep refining their changer systems to some degree as time passes.

I think the biggest change, of course, is when Emmons went from the push/pull system to an all pull setup.

Also, Marlen started out with a pull-release system.

Sho Bud also went from permanent, to finger tip, to different configurations of the changer fingers to allow more pulls. And with the new Jackson guitars, the lowers are accomplished at the key head.

And of course, Bruce Zumsteg has added the hybrid changer to his product line.

Williams has reduced the angle of the dangle where the string end fastens to the changer finger.

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I am most familiar with. Very Happy

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Thanks Irv, I felt if anyone would know, it should be you.
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Jerry, would a "wave" washer/s work just as well, or wouldn't they have enough tension in them? If so, I felt it might provide a more even (level) contact. (two high spots opposite two low spots) Just a thought.
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Bent, are you still using Solid Fingers on your home built? If so, were you able to get splits to work on your system?

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

Jerry, That's a great idea. Sometimes trying to get things just right you end up with such a small spring that it won't sit straight on the rod. I suppose one could even use more than one lock or wave washer with short spacers between them if necessary.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Jerry F, sorry I didn't see your reply till now fri. 4:30 pm. I will however try and be at the Army Navy. Is that the one across from the Free Press??

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

Erv,

My extended bellcrank is also for the first string, although I put a half tone tuner on and use it to raise to G and give me a feel stop while raising string 7 F#/G/G#.

I recently tried raising both 1 and 7 to G# with a feel stop at G. I put half tone tuners on both raises and used a lowering rod to a string I don't lower. I could adjust the return spring to give a very nice "bump" at G. Worked great but I reverted back so I could get the 13th chord with A & B down and string 7 up to G. Sounds like pedal 6 on C6.

I was thinking of trying one on the 4th string C pedal raise, to shorten the pedal travel. I think this would only work if you raise and lower the E's on the right knees.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Bent, I was referring back to when we had been discussing Changer Systems, and you were at the time, working on building your steel. For whatever reason it was, I was thinking you were going to use a one piece finger. Probably because we were discussing Changer design at the time.

I would say the bearings would be a great help in ease of op, as well as the oil-lite bushings. Along with the other work you did as well. Glad it worked out so well for ya. Not bad at all, especially for a first build design.

Don

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Don,
I appreciate you contacting me about my build. I am currently building 2 SD10's and they will be identical except for different color/finish.
There are so many great private builders around North America and Europe. I am in awe of those craftsmen. One name I will mention in that regard is Martin Weenick from Florida. He has it down to a science and I can only wish to emulate him.
best regards,
Bent

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