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Topic: sho bud Permanent changer finger size? |
Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2008 9:19 am |
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I've got a 64ish Sho Bud permanent. I just recieved the two extra changer fingers that I was looking for. I was kind of surprised to find that the changer axle for these new fingers are 5/8ths and the outside size of the finger is 3/4inch. My changer axle is 1/2 and the outside size is 5/8ths.
I didn't think that Sho Bud made different sized axles durring the permanent period. I read a flyer from Miller Custom where it says that they went to the 5/8th axles with a 3/4 finger in order to decrease string breaks and to help with lowers. It seemed like they were saying that that made them different from Sho Bud.
Just out of curiousity, can a few of you permanent owners measure your changer axles. I'd like to know what the normal or most common axles were.
And if anyone needs two changer fingers....
Steve
Last edited by Steve Waltz on 3 Jun 2008 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Antolina
From:
Dunkirk NY
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Posted 3 Jun 2008 10:09 am
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Contact Ricky Davis. What he doesn't know about Sho~Buds isn't worth writing 
sshawaiian@austin.rr.com
_________________
The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2008 10:13 am
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| I think Ricky said that he isn't that familiar with the 50's and early 60's Sho Buds. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2008 11:27 am
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You're right; I just haven't had enough Permenants and Fingertips through my hands to know the extreme details about them.
I do know the fingertips I had through here are 5/8" and 3/4"> I've seen with my eyes two different sizes on permenants....but never measured.
John Coop would know the more details.
ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Russ Blake
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2008 1:14 pm
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| I believe my Permanent is about a '64 (its a D-10 with a Madison decal) and it has 1/2" axles and 5/8" fingers. I have seen smaller diameter axles (3/8"?) on D-8 perms. |
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Antolina
From:
Dunkirk NY
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Posted 3 Jun 2008 6:41 pm
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Give JB Billings a shot if Coop can't help you tho I'd be surprised of he can't. He's pretty good with the old ones.
jb181@mac.com If he can't help I'm sure he can point you in the right direction
_________________
The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 4:15 am
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The axle on my 59 Perm is 1/2". But the axle on my circa 64 Fingertip is about 5/8". I say "about" because I haven't taken the changer apart to mic up the shaft. It actually appears to be slightly under 5/8 when just measuring it from the hole in the side of the changer.
64 seems like it's a fairly "late" Perm. In this discussion,
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=127037&highlight=fingertip
we all talked about the evolution of the F-tips, how they changed, etc.. For instance, the differences between James Morehead's later guitar, and my early, first-run guitar. We also wondered if the larger axle contributed to the wonderful sound of the F-tips. Given that your Perm was made during the F-tip era, it would not surprise me a bit if, to lower production costs, parts were designed to be interchangeable on the two models then in production.
Here's another good thread,
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=122907&highlight=fingertip
Pretty much everything I know has been gotten by buggin' Coop, Ricky, and James. Those guys have forgotten more about Shobuds then I'll ever know!
Last edited by John Billings on 5 Jun 2008 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 8:15 am
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My guitar is a Maddison. It has welded cross shafts. I believe that permanents were made into the late 60's even though they had other lines. My axle is 1/2.
The reason I was asking for sizes of other permanents is becasue I want to know if the 1/2 axle is common. I might have to have a few new fingers made and I would think a batch would be more cost effective. I didn't want to make a number of them and then find out that my guitar was an odd one.
Maybe john has a point in thinking the later models went to the larger axle. Maybe it was an option earlier?
Steve |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 8:43 am
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"Maybe it was an option earlier? "
Steve,,,, I kinda doubt it. Not sure, but,,,, they would have to have made different changer frames, different fingers, and different axles. Admittedly, it's basically just drilling larger holes, but I kinda doubt they woulda done that.
Someone posted a pic of a later Perm, and at a casual glance, it looked almost identical to a F-tip. Even had several F-tip parts underneath. So I think that the thoughts were, "Use as many parts in common as possible." Although we all know how often things changed back then. My F-tip has the string ball-ends as rollers, but the 5th and 6th tuners are offset. My Madison Perm has no rollers, but the 5th and 6th tuners are lined up, and with the tuner shafts ground down to fit. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 10:04 am
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The axle is 5/8" (.625), the fingers are 4" x 3/4" x (a small) 5/16". I'm assuming that the "small" .303 - .306 might be because of polishing.
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 10:27 am
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Chas,
Do you know what year the guitar was that those fingers came from? I'm thinking it was newer since all of the fingers have three holes drilled. I assume for the newer changes when knees started to be added.
Thanks for taking the time to take the pictures.
Steve |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 11:47 am
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| Can't tell about the diameters but my -63 has two hole fingers only ( it's a Madison one ) |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 2:01 pm
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Steve, I was told, from a reliable source, that it was a '64, originally made for Bobby Garrett. It's an 11 - 11 - 16 with 11 pedals and at least 1 knee. Currently, it's resting in pieces, and needs a lot of attention, just like everything and everyone else around here.
This is the changer and key head for the 16:
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2008 8:42 pm
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2008 9:14 am
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Bobbe,
What's the laughing guy about?
I thought you knew a lot about these years of Sho Buds. That can't be all that you have to offer? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2008 10:02 am
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| My 59 Madison has two hole fingers. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Jun 2008 8:44 pm
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Steviepoo, what am I laughing about? I have so many of these old Sho-Bud perms around and it just tickles me to see some of these guys talking about them and wondering about the details, there were several different Perms, none really were the same. Remember, this was the beginning of Sho-Bud, lots and lots of experementing, I have many perms in my personal collection, my favorite Sho-bud.
I also specalize in restorations on these guitars, I have most of the patterns and so on.
But it's a work of love, going on 50+ years with this great first model of Sho-Bud. Really, the only Sho-Bud I really love. I have singles, doubles and some triples in these years. 8 9 10 12 14 and one 16 stringer.
Ya' jes gotta' luvem!
Bobbster
Last edited by Bobbe Seymour on 5 Jun 2008 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Jun 2008 9:12 pm
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By the way Steve, Shot built a lot of the early guitars himself. He used SEVERAL different size fingers. From 62 up, David Jackson built about all of the steels, with some help from Harry. Shot built the specialty guitars, lap steels, Dobros, Custom Basses, Rhythm guitars for the "Stars" and so on. David hunkered down and put out the great quanity of the instruments.
After the "Perm" period, he did ALL the steels himself.(with the help of some famous employees)
I'll say it again, a great Sho-Bud Perm is the guitar that built Nashville !  And definately the Sho-Bud co.
Weldon, Buddy himself, Jimmy Day,,,,,,, oh heck, I'll just say EVERYBODY played the Sho-Perm in the very beginning! '57 to '66 were the years. When Sho-Bud quit building the "Perm" guitar, everyone went to the Emmons Stereo, it seems.
To fight Emmons, David built the "Sho-Bud Cross over", and the first "all pull" fingertip guitars. Not a lot of takers, but Sho-Bud came back with a vengence in the early seventies with the "Pro series", but the Emmons was hard to beat, smaller , lighter, Incredible tone, great dependibillity, not as pretty as Sho- Bud, but sort of that dependible "Machine kinda look".
For me, going from Sho-Bud to Emmons took a period of two years, I knew the Emmons was great, but it was very hard to leave the Sho-Bud family. I love them all, and the guitars.
I now have a Sho-Bud "Super Pro II" and a 59 "Madison Perm" that I love, and will keep. But I still love the old Emmons guitars to hack around on. And sessions are hard to beat on the Emmons P-P.
Other guitars that are good? Yes! Several.
I sell several new guitars I really believe in, I won't handle any brand I don't feel good about. I won't sell anything I won't play. Period.
Want to start a great steel collection while the great guitars are still cheap? Get a Sho-Bud "Perm". Send it to my restoration facility and jump back! Beauty, Tone, and heritage personified.
Look how many thousands and thousands of the greatest country hits were recorded on these ole' guitars. Almost everything recorded between '57 and '66. The TRUE golden era of Country music, AND steel guitar,
Enough, I gotta' go home!
Bobbster |
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 5 Jun 2008 9:28 pm
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This is only my personal opinion of course, but I think the best sounding steel guitar I ever heard was Buddy Charleton's Sho-Bud permanent that he played on all those Ernest Tubb recordings. The combination of Charleton's touch and his Sho-Bud permanent guitar rendered a sound that to me is quintessential and historical for the steel guitar.
CLICK HERE TO HEAR WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Jun 2008 9:44 pm
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Mike, Whew, yes! Great tone for how he's using it, but many other tones were obtained by other players, This was perfect for Tubb, but others players got quite a different type of sound, Chalker, Weldon, Jimmy Crawford, Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, to name a few, and remember, some of these guitars were built pretty different also.
Hearing this type of tone with E.T. is the perfect tone for the great country artist that E.T. was,,,,,,,,,,,,, I agree.
I'm a gunna' go get mine out right now!
\ Bobbe |
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 5 Jun 2008 9:51 pm
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Right as rain you are Mr Bobster. I personally also love the sound of Chalker, Weldon, Jimmy Crawford, Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day. All different, and all equally beautiful. I guess I just have a soft spot for Charleton's sound with Tubb. It's hard for me to imagine anything else than the way he played and sounded with ole E.T....come to think of it, I also love the way Lynn Owsley sounded with E.T when he took over. Although completely different than Charleton, he also fit right in perfectly in his own way. There's just something about Charleton and that perm though that will always sends shivers up my spine.
Mike |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2008 6:50 am
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Mike,
I agree with you completely.
I remember seeing Ernest and the Troubadours at a county fair many years ago.
I can still picture Buddy dancing, with both feet, on the C6th pedals.  |
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2008 9:34 am
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| BobbeSeymour wrote: |
I also specalize in restorations on these guitars, I have most of the patterns and so on.
Bobbster |
Bobbe,
That's why I called you first for the fingers, the card suite sticker and the Maddison sticker.You said you didn't have any of those things and you had no suggestions for me. I have everything taken care of now except for the fingers. I can live without them but it would be nice. Can you suggest someone to make them?
And thanks for the information, that was helpful.
"Steve" |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2008 9:35 am
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| Steve, have you contacted John Coop? Wouldn't surprise me if he had a box of them! |
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2008 9:42 am
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| John only has the 5/8 axle ones. |
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