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Topic: Push Pull Modification |
Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2008 7:40 pm |
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This is my 1981 P/P that I added solid rods and did away with the little wire things. It was partly done when I got it so I just finished the job. The guitar plays wonderful, pedals smooth as silk and it doesn't have that spongy feel that alot of P/P's have that I have played and also, very little slack if any on the pedals.
I know, I've been told that you cannot improve on perfection and also this probably decreases the value of the guitar but don't care about that because I'm going to keep it anyway.
Just wondering what some of you P/P fans and owners think about this, pros and cons.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 12 Feb 2008 7:48 pm
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| Good luck with your lowers...hope it works. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2008 7:57 pm
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Thanks for the reply John. The lowers work great. I've been playing this guitar for about 2 years and have had no issues with it so far.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 12 Feb 2008 10:16 pm
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| If the steel still has its original bellcranks, the pedal and lever travel will be excessive. |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 4:23 am
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| With the length of the "hooks" showing it looks like you have plenty of room to allow for whatever slack you would need for a lower. I don't see how it would in any way change your pedal or knee lever travel. I owned and worked on 2 Emmon's for 30+ years and I personally don't see anything wrong with this at all. I can't comment on how it works in the real world since I have not played your guitar |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 6:09 am
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| I don't see anything wrong with that as long as there is enough space so they don't interfere with the other changer fingers. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 6:38 am
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Everything else on the guitar is original, including the push rods for the lowers. The only difference is the pull rods.
I probably wouldn't have done this but when I got the guitar, some of the E9th neck had been done so just out of curiosity, I converted the E9th neck and it all worked so good, I also coverted the C6th neck to the solid rods.
Gary, you are correct about the hooks, there is plenty room for the lower travel. The only draw back I have to this system is if the rods have to go into one of the lower holes on the changer, the rod has to be flattened out to be able to fit into the lower holes. I did this by carefully grinding down the side of the rod making it flat which gives enough room for it to fit into the lower changer holes. It my weaken the rod but I used stainless steel rods and they are plenty strong,even ground down on the side. Thanks for the input you all.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 6:42 am
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| Quote: |
| it doesn't have that spongy feel that alot of P/P's have that I have played |
Henry, my friend
The spongey feel to which you refer is not because of, or caused by, the wire raise hooks your system has eliminated. It's caused by the pedal stops being out of adjustment.
That spongey feel is due to the pedal stop screws not bottoming out at the same instant the raise fingers reach the cabinet edge which stops their motion. When the finger stops raising but the pedal stop screw is still backed off allowing the pedal further travel, that's when you get that "soft" feel.
The pedals, when properly adjusted for travel, should have a very firm, distinct "thunk" and a positive STOP!! feel to them.
Solution: with the guitar upside down after being correctly tuned, push the pedal with one hand while making sure the pedal travel pulls the raise finger to the cabinet edge... and I mean RIGHT AT the cabinet edge with no further forward motion possible. Then adjust the pedal stop screw on the crossbar actuator arm so that it stops at the stop bar at that moment the finger raise is accomplished.
This will yield that positive, definite feel to the pedal action.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Charles Curtis
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 7:05 am Emmons PP
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| I have never tried to get into the mechanics of the PP; being content to spend my time just playing. However, I wonder if any changes could affect the tone of the guitar? I believe that Ron Sr. experimented with different things that evolved to what we have today with the "Big E". I would love to hear input from "Buddy" on this subject; and of course from Mr. Carl Dixon. I recently acquired a PP and promptly took it to Billy Cooper, of Billy Coopers Music in Orange, Va. to do a couple of changes for me on the guitar. It has a fantastic tone and I would be hesitant to do anything that could affect that. I had a conversation with a very well known psg musician in Nashville, when I was trying to run down an old guitar of his, and he told me that the tone can be affected with a "change". IMO, this is a great thread. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 7:28 am
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| I do not consider this to be a beneficial modification. In fact, the inability to hook the pull rods to the lower holes in the changer finger takes away any benefits this modification "might" have. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 8:13 am
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Thank you all for the input.
Herb, I'm aware of that adjustment and just assumed that the wires maybe did add some spongy feeling.(Of course, you know what happens when you assume.) I've never played this guitar with the wires. It came Emmons setup and I play Day, so I changed it over before I ever played it. It came with solid rods on the A,B,and C pedals so I just converted the rest of it to rods. The other P/P that I had was a year later than this one and I never could get it to play as easy as this guitar and it was orginal.
Erv, I was able to use the lower holes by flattening out the end by the hook to make room by the changer.
Charles, I could not tell any difference in tone on the C6th neck to (wires verses solid rods). i can't compare the E9th as I never played it with wires but the guitar does have that Emmons tone.
Thaks again to you all.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Roger Light
From:
Sheldon, IL
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 10:49 am
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I used to own this guitar and I could not tell the difference in the way it played as compared to my buddy's all original PP. Never had any problems with it returning to pitch. Somebody did a good job bending wires!  |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 12:21 pm
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ratio choices?
What Herb said,
Last edited by Bobbe Seymour on 13 Feb 2008 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 12:24 pm
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Now that I look closer, I see that all the fingers aren't hooked up this "modified" way. String number three is still using the hook, yep, has to be that way to get the balenced pull. However, now you have two systems to do the same job,
Bobbster |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 1:15 pm
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Hey John, glad to find out who had this guitar. Do you mind telling why you got rid of it? I got it from Billy Carr about 2 years ago I think and I really like the guitar. It does stay in tune as good or better than any guitar I've ever owned.
Hey Bobbster, I think picture isn't clear enough, but there are no wire hooks anywhere on this guitar.
Thanks yall
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 2:39 pm
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well...bobbe's not as young as he was yesterday! i don't see any wire cept for the one spring attachment on the second string.
this is interesting to see this solid rod application and to hear that it works...kinda cleans up the floppy factor on a push-pull. |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 3:40 pm Mac Atcheson
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I owned a 72 PP that I took to Atlanta to let Mac Atcheson refurb for me. It took him 1 week, and when it came back, it was absolutely flawless. He did the same thing to mine. He also rigged the B pedal to bring my 6 string up a 1/2 step to a minor third with the RKR engaged. Wish Id never sold it..Mac charged me..................15.00...Yep 15.00....where ya gonna get that kind of service anymore....?
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 5:30 pm
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Mickey, would sure like to know how that is done. I have that pull on my Rains but haven't figured out how to do it on a P/P.
By the way, love your Youtube stuff. Thanks for that little trick for the pull in "I Sang Dixie". Knew it was on my P/P but didn't know where. It's easy with the 6th string lower on an all pull but the P/P threw me until your Youtube on the song. Henry
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 6:14 pm Hey Henry!
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Henry, I told several people what Mac had done to my guitar, and all of them said it wasnt possible...I have a videotape that Mac sent me before he left us, of him explaining what he had done to my guitar in the undercarriage. I have never been, and do not profess to be a P/P guru...But im here to tell you, it was there, and it had a half-stop tuner underneath...i will review the video and see if I cant find "the secret"...I traded that guitar to a guy named Billy VanKuren in Denver, for a Mullen D10 back in about 2001...havent heard from him since.
thanks for tuning in to my YouTube videos, and posting your thoughts here on the Forum....Mickey
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Feb 2008 6:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| This is my 1981 P/P that I added solid rods and did away with the little wire things. |
As I understand it, those "rings" were designed into the guitar to isolate (as much as possible) the changer from the pulling train. I can only think that was a logical move, and that consequently, your guitar may have lost some sustain or tone with the modifications pictured. |
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Roger Light
From:
Sheldon, IL
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2008 11:40 am
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Thanks Roger for the links. very interesting comments and I had forgotten that I had posted earlier on this guitar. This may or may not be the same guitar but when I got it, the c6th neck still had the wires and I converted it over to solid rods.
Even though I disagree with some of the con comments on this set up, I may later convert it back to orginal if I can find the parts. Still though, it is a great playing and sounding guitar and it's BLACK.
And by the way Roger, I also have a new Rains D-10 and it also is a great playing and sounding guitar. Can't go wrong with a Rains. Thanks---Henry
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Roger Light
From:
Sheldon, IL
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Posted 15 Feb 2008 6:14 am
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Henry,
I'll bet it's not the same guitar. Mine had both necks "converted". It's still fun to talk about them. I know I wish I still had mine, but that's how it goes sometimes. I love my Rains  |
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