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Topic: universal copedent |
Jim Ragan
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 5:22 pm |
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I would like to change the top neck of a D-12 MSA 8x4 to a universal.
How would I change the copedent to a universal?
oj. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 6:09 pm
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You're going to have to dismantle and re-assemble the entire undercarriage, except for the C pedal, which doesn't need to be changed.
If you've never done this before, I suggest that you take the guitar to a qualified technician and have it done professionally.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 6:38 pm
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Start by removing the bottom 4 strings. Replace them with the bottom 4 strings from a C6th set, and tune them to B, E, G#, B (low to high).
Move the rod that used to pull the 10th string (1st pedal) over to the 9th string.
Move the rod that used to pull the 11th string (2nd pedal) over to the 10th string.
If you had a lever that lowered the 9th string D to C#, move that rod over to the 8th string as a full step lower (E to D).
That's the beginning. Next, you'll want to set up the inside pedals to pull the C6th changes. Study the various U-12 copedents listed here, and set up the pulls accordingly.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 6:47 pm
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If you have a "double raise/lower changer"...
Fughettabouttit.
The obvious question...
Why??? |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 7:03 pm
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
If you have a "double raise/lower changer"...
Fughettabouttit.
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Pete, since you play a different brand, perhaps you were unaware that Tom Bradshaw has invented a little devise that converts a lower to a raise on those old classic MSAs. When these are installed in the changer on the 2 strings where 3 raises are required, you get 3 raises and one lower instead of 2 and 2.
I've got these devises im both my older guitars. They work great.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 8:07 pm
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Here's another way to do it with a double raise/double lower changer:
CLICK HERE |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 9:35 pm
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fwiw, I don't think the U12 thing really "worked" 'till the mid 80's, with no less than 3-raise, 2-lower, changers.
The direction it is going now is standard 3-raise, 3-lower changers, with some Co's offering 5-raise, 4-lowers.
Do you have a verticel lever (LKV) on this steel?
Last edited by Pete Burak on 6 Jan 2008 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2008 11:43 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
.. perhaps you were unaware that Tom Bradshaw has invented a little devise that converts a lower to a raise on those old classic MSAs. When these are installed in the changer on the 2 strings where 3 raises are required, you get 3 raises and one lower instead of 2 and 2.
I've got these devises im both my older guitars. They work great. |
Tom did the same modification on my S-12 Sierra Olympic, when I wanted to experiment with a full blown C6th copedent (three raises on the A string). But we digress...
I think that the front neck of a D-12 could be a universal, and the back neck could be something else - maybe a Sacred Steel E7 or a Diatonic. It could be a fun project. Or it could drive you crazy. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 1:19 am
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I have a BMI with a 2-up, 2-down changer and merely used 'flippers' to get a 3rd raise on a string. Not all guitars are capable of this, but most are. In doing this, the so-called 'third' pull must be tuned from the underside of the guitar. Once the tuning is established between cross-shafts, it rarely needs to be tweaked. BTW my 1979 BMI S-10 came from Zane with a flipper in place as it had only a 2-up, 2-down changer on it. I had 3 pulls on the 4th string, hence the factory-installed tunable 'flipper' for one of the 3 pulls. If you've never done this sort of thing before, it will test your imagination and your patience. But it can and often is done successfully on older guitars. Don't give up yet!!!
PRR |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 1:46 am
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You can also put Sho-Bud tuning collars on the rods, and tune the 3rd raises that way, but it's a hassle. Tom's devises, once they are installed, make it simple and easy. You tune the changes on the converted rods just the same as you do all the others. The only difference is that 3 of the rods on 5th and 6th strings tune the raises and only one tunes the lower. You only need one lower on those 2 strings anyway.
IMHO, Tom's devises are the way to go.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Scott Howard
From:
Georgetown, TN, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 3:37 am
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Mike is 100% correct.
I have used several different ways to get a triple raise on the older MSA's and the way Tom did it is the easiest in the long run. With it ,you still tune by the nylon tunung nut on the end and you don't have to try and remember any special ways to tune any given pull.
I ordered some from Tom last year and just finished putting a Universal tuning back on the MSA in my avatar. 29 pulls all tuned at the end.
As for why a D-12 to a Universal. I can not speak for others but I have less thinking problems with a universal than a double neck unless I tune the other neck to B6th. I have a D-12 MSA with E 9th on one neck but with B on 9th string no D string and lower string like a Universal. Other neck tuned to B 6th same as if you where holding the Eb lever in. I know this may seem stupid to most but it works for me. |
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 7:18 am
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Hi Mike, my old Sho-Bud S-12 is only a double raise single lower, it's an early 70's, and years ago when I had a universal copedant arranged for it, the guy added tunable collars as you mentioned underneath. Have not had any problems whatsoever, works really well 
Micky Byrne |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 8:30 am
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As I recall, MSA was one of the pioneers of the U-12 concept. I would expect a D-12 MSA to be mechanically capable of holding a U-12 copedent on either neck. It was a top-of-the-line instrument in its day.
| Jim Ragan originally wrote: |
I would like to change the top neck of a D-12 MSA 8x4 to a universal.
How would I change the copedent to a universal? |
I described the first steps above. From that point, you need to see the whole guitar. How many of the inside pedals do you want to use on the U-12? What do you want to do with the back neck?
Also, do you play Emmons or Day E9th pedals (ABC vs. CBA)? How are the knee levers currently configured? What E9th copedent are you most comfortable playing? These things will make a difference in how you ultimately set up the U-12 neck.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 8:33 am
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| Micky Byrne wrote: |
Hi Mike, my old Sho-Bud S-12 is only a double raise single lower, it's an early 70's, and years ago when I had a universal copedant arranged for it, the guy added tunable collars as you mentioned underneath. Have not had any problems whatsoever, works really well
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Mickey, I had the Sho-Bud Collars on my guitars before I had Tom's devises installed. They worked OK, but they're hard to use. You gotta get under the guitar, and mess with them while holding the rod still (I used to use a vice grip to keep the rod steady while I adjusted the collars) and it takes forever to get them in tune. Tom's conversion thingies (we gotta find a name for them) are fast and easy to use.
The advantages of the collars are that you can add an infinite number of them, and the will most likely work on any guitar. Ton's were specifically designed for MSA, although they will apparently work on any guitar with a similar changer, and you can only add one per string.
But the original poster has an MSA guitar, and wants to put a U-12 tuning on it, which only requires triple raises on the 2 strings in question. He doesn't need to be able to raise the strings more than that, so there is no advantage whatsoever to him to use the collars.
Scott, what's the deal with your keyless tuner? NSA never made that.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 9:29 am
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Hi Mike, I may have explained it wrong. It was on the double lower on the 8th string. One adjuster took the E to D# RKR and the other the E to D LKL. Both on one rod. Of course the 8th string was quite near me to adjust as it wasn't a double body, and they adjusted "very" easily from the way he designed them. Having said that the 'Bud is now cased up. It's just too heavy and I just use my Carter Uni....nice and light and brilliant mechanics, and all adjusters on the end/plate like we love 'em
Micky Byrne |
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Scott Howard
From:
Georgetown, TN, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 9:45 am
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Mike you are correct again. It is also square crossrods and Fessenden pullers. Shortened about 5". It was a project I did a couple of years ago. It needed a lot of work when I bought it and I wanted it easier to change the set up. so I did it my way.
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Jim Ragan
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2008 5:24 pm
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Thanks EVERYONE,
I will start with b0b's idea of moving the 4 bottom C6 strings to the top neck and trying out Danny Naccarato copendent.
JR |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 9 Jan 2008 2:13 pm D-12
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| Never had one these but if I did I think I might look at having the outside neck set up U-12 and add a pad on the back. By removing the hardware on the back neck that would probably lighten the weight on these old heavy guitars. The E9th/B6th has everything unless a player wants to try something different with the extra neck. That's a lot of work to do on a guitar, especially if a player is not a steel tech. Good luck. |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2008 12:10 am
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Scott has taken the major blight out of the MSA equation. MSA bellcranks were notorious for slipping when you least expected them to do so. He converted to the square shaft configuration, shortened the guitar drastically, and converted to a keyless configuration. This guitar has simply got to be one of the finest-playing pedal steel guitars on planet Earth. It could not be otherwise. What a jewel!!! Nice work!!! Now if I can get my pulse back down a bit.
PRR |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 10 Jan 2008 12:19 am
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Scott,
is that a Williams keyless system ?
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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