Rock'n' Blues Starter PSG

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

OK, extrapolating on the current RR thread.

Lets discuss a potential copedent,
if Carter were to make an 2nd version
of the Starter for drawing in the
Robert Randolph inspired young players.

I think they are out there,
and also think the classic copedent is
not for them... YET. Maybe later.

So what variation of the Sacred Steel copedent,
or another, would work on a fixed Rock Starter,
and give:

Good strumability for the debutant, to just get playing
and not get frustrated and quit.

Enough chords and harmonic power to be a fast chording instrument.
(The basic circle of chord forms in common music.)

And the ability to go through a distorted amp
and have that power chord thing come out clean.

Enough logic in the string tuning to be
a strong enough lead instrument.

9ths are cool, but they also get in the way until you have control.

We need to think about the kids and their music
not OUR music.
A steel they can play Lincoln Parc or Alanis with,
as well as Stevie Ray and Led Zep.

... this should be interesting.

Basic thoughts
E tuning with a low 6th, maybe
top to bottom
E, B, G#, E, B, G#, E, C#, E, B
I, V, III, I, V, III, I, VI, I, V

AB pedals
Plus lower their Third 1/2

Open,
lower the thirds 1/2
lower the octave E whole step for bVII

Maj VII is good too,
but less needed in their music.

Lower E's
Raise E's

Remember this is for their music,
not us theory mavens music.
If there is something missing,
but can be gotten by bar movement then,
it's more like a slide guitar.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 December 2006 at 10:17 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 18 Dec 2006 9:47 pm

I think b0b has 8- and 10-string Sacred Steel tunings that would work (http://b0b.com/tunings/sacredsteel.html).

Also, the uni tuning without the top two stings would be good - bottom to top: B E G# B E F# G# B E G#. For 8 strings, loose the F# and top G#. It has the power chords at the bottom for both major keys and minor keys (with the A pedal). Extended E9 does not have that low minor chord root that a uni has. The F# is a little in the way for the E chord. But it becomes a 6th for the A chord with the A and B pedals down; and a vertical lever easily takes it to a 7th, which is very useful. With the A pedal minor position (C# minor at the nut, the relative minor of E), the F# is the 4th and very useful in minor pentatonic stuff. For the E chord, the D string is missing, so it is not in the way, and the D is easily gotten on a lever when needed. You could loose pedals 4-8. So a 10-string E9/B6 with 3&5 would do it for me. That's pretty much what I use now for blues/rock/funk/jazz.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 18 December 2006 at 10:00 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I've set up a couple steels for guys with a 10st blues type tuning. If I remember right I took off the 7th string F# and added a low E to the 10th spot. Or maybe I took off the D string to make room for the low E. Just something so you can get those low "framing" licks of Chuck Campbell's.

Dan Tyack has a good concept for a 10st posted someplace. The trick with the Randolph, Campbell style of playing isn't so much with the tuning. C6 or E9 work fine. Its more about those backward picking rolls and left hand bar control/blocking. Chuck can show anybody how to play in that style no matter what tuning they use.

I'm pretty sure Carter has looked into this already. In my opinion it would take a whole marketing campaign involving Robert Randolph or Chuck Campbell to give it some juice and that is a whole different thing for a builder to deal with. If you put a little effort into it you can play most all the Randolph stuff on a Carter Starter already.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 18 December 2006 at 11:53 PM.]

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There have been a lot of these types of setups discussed in the past. I think a lot of these were geared to 10-string, which is reasonable if we're talking about adapting an existing design. Both the setups suggested above seem reasonable.

But I was thinking more in the line of an 8-string with wider string spacing that emulates a guitar or lap steel more. I find the high G# more useful than the low B. So bottom to top: E B C# E G# B E G#. Usual E9-style pedals - A: B->C# on strings 3,7; B: G#->A on strings 1, 4; C: B->C# on string 3 and E->F# on strings 2,5. Levers - F: E->F on strings 2,5; E: E->D# on strings 2,5; G: G#->G on strings 1,4; D: E->D on string 2 and C#->D on string 6. If a fifth lever was allowed: X: B->A# on strings 3, maybe 7;

Strings 2,3,4,5,7,8 are just the open E tuning as used by many slide guitar players. I like the C# right where it is there, especially in conjunction with the C#->D lever. And the G# on top, plus the standard changes on strings 1-5 give many of the standard E9 possibilities.

A simple variation would interchange the C-pedal (pull only the E's to F#) with the D-lever. This would cut the number of pulls on the C-pedal type change and put the b7 changes on a pedal.

One could adapt the above approach to 10-string by inserting F# where it belongs on E9, but putting on a lever to lower it to E to keep it out of the way. That would leave a spare string on the top or bottom. But I sorta like the simplicity of the 8-string approach for this kind of stuff.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 19 December 2006 at 12:27 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"strike while the iron is hot"

Exactly.

IMO the 8-string SS variant b0b has posted in his SS article is a great place to start. I'm not much on theory, so I can only talk from a seat-of-you-pants, era-trained perspective, but when I tuned one of my 1000 necks that way I was "riffing along with Chuck" in minutes. It also fit the thought pattern still in the head of an old six-string slinger, so young guys playing guitar would already have a head start, I think.

One thing previously mentioned that I do know, theory-wise: you certainly don't need any access to a M7 chord. Majors, minors, and "no thirds" power chords are the bulk of the rhythm needed for rock, metal, punk, hardcore etc. Blues becomes a ittle more complicated depending on how "jazzy" it ends up, but again - this needs to be thought of in a stripped-down, beginner way.

In the other thread I suggest E9 made sense because of the plethora of instruments, but if this was to be a focused marketing plan, the 8-string, E-based tuning sans 9th's and with easy reach to power chords and major/minor (stripped-down blues scale) pentatonic "pockets" for lead playing would be just the ticket.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 December 2006 at 05:49 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I agree with Dave, I think an 8-string would be far more suited as a crossover between pedal steel and the straight guitar. However, 8-string pedal models are scarce. A "permanent" type guitar has limited appeal, and I'd imagine that's one reason the Carter Starter is so cheap - there's only one model. Also, while a simpler 8-string pedal guitar might well "catch on" amongst some younger players, the resale of such a guitar would be considerably more difficult since the mass appeal would still be low compared to other guitars. Players who want such a guitar now seem to be gravitating towards an old Fender, or a more "pro" model, so that the tuning and setup can be easily changed. I think that only when the existing supply of old Fenders is gone will another new (simple) 8-string pedal guitar be really viable. We're really at a turning point now, IMHO. It remains to be seen whether guitars will keep increasing in complexity (and price), or whether the trend will shift back to more basic models that are easier to understand, master, and stylize.

Each time we "improve" the instrument by adding pedals, levers, and strings (and soon adopting them as "standards"), we seem to actually be reducing the chances that it will ever become widely accepted.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

A few converging trends:

1) There is a strong and growing Mid-Eastern influence in modern rap, pop and rock music â€“ I thought it might diminish for (obvious) political reasons, but it actually seems to be increasing. There have always been strains of exotic scales in metal, ranging back to Led Zeppelin and the phrygian & locrian scale stuff, but the Mid-Eastern thing is big in rap and the rap/rock derivatives now too, melodies and rhythms. I caught bits and pieces of Madonnaâ€™s recent TV concert and it was pseudo-Easty in a big way, harem pants, bald guys and all â€“ the new-agers kink that (musical) way too.

2) Indian lap steelers Vishwa Mohan Bhatt and Debashish Bhattacharya have been going great guns teaching steel students in both India, and America & Europe, for years now. With six-stringers like Indian electric guitarist Prasanna and the still-zippy John McLaughlin pursuing that line of fusion, I wouldnâ€™t be at all surprised if the â€œHendrix of the Steel Guitarâ€ comes roaring out of Bangalore or Bombay rather than America or Europe â€“ if so, he will probably have his own tuning quite well in hand. They still have a practice & work ethic over there that surpasses that of our massively-multitasked American kids by quite a stretch â€“ can you picture an American kid practicing 16 hours a day? A 16-minute attention span sounds optimistic to me....

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I don't think an 8-string instrument and continued evolution in more complex instruments are, necessarily, mutually exclusive. Although I'm occasionally in playing situations where a setup like I described might work fine, I don't think such a design would really suit me. Still, I may try this on my little BMI S-10, just leaving the top two strings alone. I suppose it's possible that a different setup on an existing 10-string starter might be less expensive to produce than an 8-string, due to economy of scale.

I think someone who is primarily a guitar player, but wants something that would give the most basic E9 PSG changes along with close correlation to a slide guitar, might well prefer the 8-string design, even long haul. I know a couple of very good guitar players who tried std. E9 PSG, found it not to their tastes. They wound up moving to lap steel, which they are learning to play well. I can see how the melodic strings, narrow string spacing, plus lack of the low-E could get in the way for some guitar players who want to focus more on rock and blues.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

This is a very interesting topic and I thought I would chime in with an international perspective.

Here in Brazil there is an incredible rise in interest in steel. Principally lap steel, since they are easy to produce by local luthiers. These guys mostly play rock and blues (if you want to call either of them that, more like pop and jazz for the die hard). I was always interested in finding out how these guys were tuning their instruments (I am a bit isolated from the scene), so I did some investigating and they are using the old Major E tuning on six stringer lap steels. I showed the guys my E13 and they liked the jazzy possibilities of it, but prefer the E maj for its crossover design. If I were going to tailor a tuning to these markets I think I would look at an 8 string model with pedals to get your VI and V7 chords. The bass strings would be set up so you could play the MAJ5 chords (Power Chords) and be able to drop your root a full step, like in detuned metal tunings.

I think this would be a draw.

M.

Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

I think a straight up open E tunining. Look at all of the stuff you can play on a lap steel or slide guitar in straight E major chord. You could set up all kinds of pulls to get the repetitious licks they play. You would need to have pulls to get 7th, 9th and minor chords too. Just my thoughts on this. I might get slamded on this one but when you play rock on the E9 or C6 it sounds O.K. but it still has that country or swing sound to it to me according to the tuning you are playing it on. You could take 3 or 4 kids with these alternate tunings and set them in a room together and you would probably be surprised at the licks they could come up with. Just like we did with 6 string guitars when I was a kid. Thats how half of the big time rock people learned. I don't see anything wrong with the younger generation playing a pedal steel how ever they want to play it. As far as starter type guitar I think you could build a single raise / single lower changer for low cost and play your heart out on it. I might get me an old beat up cheap steel and try it myself. Just my 1-1/2 cents.

Colby

Colby

[This message was edited by Colby Tipton on 19 December 2006 at 08:13 AM.]

Aaron Harms · From: Missouri, USA

I'm soooo stoked about this thread!

For your consideration: I think the players ARE going to want that 8 string dynamic more than 10...don't know why, but certainly 10 still daunts me, and the string spacing IS an issue as well.

I'm VERY happy with the tuning I'm using at the moment, which I "borrowed" from Al Perkins--

low to high: E B D E G# B E G#

Leaving the 7th in isn't a must, but perhaps for what we're considering here, you could use unison E's in the middle? I currently pull the middle E to F# via knee lever, but you could certainly lower to D/C# as well.

While I see the usefulness of a low B, which I would assume many 7 string rock players are ok with, I still think the majority of folks want that low E so they know where they are...certainly at this early stage in a player's jamming/career, it helps to be able to look at the other guy/gal's hands to keep up.

As far as copedents, I also see the A and B and 3rd lower (G#-G for me) as very important. I also include Es up and down, and the F# lever above on my current setup.

This leaves you with a 3-3 or 3-4?--That seems WAY doable for this market, because it also allows them to "talk shop" with other folks here, bridging the gap a bit

This is such a great idea, even if it's been considered before. Thanks for bringing it up!

Aaron

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I am having Jim Flynn make me a 6 string pedal steel right now. I made the body from birdseye maple and sent it to him. Strat string spacing, two pickups, plenty of knees and floors, keyless. He and I both are pretty excited about how it is turning out.

I think there is a market for a 6 or 8 string pedal steel that would be set up for playing rock or blues on with a tuning that could be easily understood by a standard guitar player. I am setting mine up just standard guitar-EADGBE. You would be amazed at the possibilities with some raises and lowers using this tuning.

I will let you guys know when the guitar is done and post some pics.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Good responces so far.

My basic thought is
teenagers do buy instruments,
but not for their parents music.
(Many eventually get on to their parents
or grandparents music.)

They do it for stripped down
have fun and wail music.

There is a ground swell for pedal steel now, directly from RR.

If we think like kids and get them an instrument
that fits them, at a price they can afford,
(Hey dad I REALLY want this !!! hint hint.)
some will sell them to buddies eventually
at a price they can afford, and get a pro model used.
others will just use the one they got,
and some will just fade out...

But I think the Starter is aimed too high;
at expirenced guitarists looking to try Nashville style steel.
And that isn't the emerging market.

Put 2 'Rock'n'Blues Starter Steels' in Guitar Centers,
coupled with a 10" tube emulator amp
and they will sell well.

IF the kid can walk in and sound like something cool,
just by putting the bar down,
banging at strings with a flat pick,
and not hitting BIG clams,
after 5 minutes of demo;
Here, hold the bar like this,
block with your palm like this,
said teenager will be into it pretty quick.

Will this be instant, of course not,
but it seems a reasonable plan.

Heck I'd like one for myself.

I see this as a route to a new generation
of young hip steel players,
who eventually will look to the roots,
and find US!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 December 2006 at 10:20 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 19 Dec 2006 10:19 am

Okay, here are some copedents to consider.

Carter basic minimal SS E7 10:



		LKL	LKV	LKR					RKL	RKR


					P1	P2	P3	P4		


1	E									


2	D	D#								


3	B				C#					


4	G#					A				G


5	E									


6	E	D#					D			


7	B				C#					


8	G#					A				G


9	E									


10	B

b0b Lee’s SS E7 8:



		LKL	LKV	LKR							RKL	RKR


					P1	P2	P3	P4				


1	E											F


2	D	D#										


3	B				C#							


4	G#					A		G				


5	E										F#	F


6	E	D#					D					


7	B				C#							


8	E											F

b0b Lee’s SS E7 10:



		LKL	LKV	LKR							RKL	RKR


					P1	P2	P3	P4				


1	F#											


2	G#					A		G				


3	E	F		F#								


4	D										Eb	


5	B		Bb		C#							


6	G#					A		G				


7	E	F		F#								


8	E						D				Eb	


9	B		Bb		C#							


10	E	F

Doggett SS E7 10:

		LKL	LKV	LKR				RKL	RKR


					P1	P2	P3		


1	E	F		F#					


2	D							Eb	


3	B		Bb		C#				


4	G#					A			G


5	E	F		F#					


6	E	F					D	Eb	


7	B		Bb		C#				


8	G#					A			G


9	E	F							


10	B				C#

Seems like one of the above 10-string setups could be offered as an option on a Carter Starter without much extra expense.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 19 December 2006 at 10:23 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

DD good comparison chart.

I have been thinking that getting that
classic blues IV7 9 chord is important,
when needed. Sort of like P6 on C6 does.

So maybe of pC and pB gets that as an alternative to AB that would be useful.
The classic C I see as less useful for kids.

Getting a V with your set up seems harder for kids
P1 and LKR
If it went to an Emmons lower Es LKR
And F# on RKL, might make it easier.
I do understand the E/knee split logic.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 December 2006 at 10:37 AM.]

Steve Hinson · From: Hendersonville Tn USA

How come people have to have a differently tuned steel to play different kinds of music...when people have learned to play every kind of music on guitars tuned the same?

------------------
http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

great point Steve

or they could always tune to EEBEEEEEEE and whang away

[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 19 December 2006 at 10:46 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 19 Dec 2006 10:52 am

We may be creating a monster we will later regret. I think a country E9 or swing C6 pedal steeler would be better off migrating to an S12 extended E9 or uni, in order to get the low power chords but still keep the versatility of E9. To me (as a former country/swing steeler), a uni is just a more complete instrument than an SS E7 (or 10-string E9 or C6, for that matter). But I have to recognize that is because of my past history on steel, and a beginner rock/blues steeler is just not going to want to deal with the complexity and expense of an S12 uni. I would like to think someone might begin on a simplified 8- or 10-string SS E7, and later graduate to a full S12 uni, for more versatility in all genres. But I'm thinking an SS E7 is enough different from a uni that such a switch would never happen. Thus we could be creating a whole generation of pedal steelers just as locked into a subgenre by their instrument as country E9ers and swing C6ers have been.

So I guess what I think might be the best possible of all worlds would be a 10-string uni starter. Later one could graduate to a 12-string pro uni with the "chromatic" strings.

S10 3&5 starter E9/B6 uni:

		LKL	LKV	LKR	1	2	3		RKL	RKR


		F	AB7th		A	B	C		EL	D, C#


1	G#					A				


2	E	F					F#		Eb	


3	B				C#		C#			


4	G#					A				


5	F#		G, G#							


6	E	F		D			F#		Eb	


7	B				C#					


8	G#					A				


9	E	F								(F#)


10	B				C#

For a rock/blues oriented 8-string starter, you could drop any two of the high G#, the F#, or the low B. I'm not sure which two would be the best to drop. But I think I lean toward keeping the low B, because it is so useful as the low root of the A pedal minor chord.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 19 December 2006 at 12:14 PM.]

Steve Hinson · From: Hendersonville Tn USA

...whatever turns them on,Greg...

------------------
http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage

[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 19 December 2006 at 10:56 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 19 Dec 2006 11:00 am

Steve, that is a completely legitimate question. I don't know if anyone really knows the answer. But it just seems to be the case that different styles of music just "lay out" better on different tunings, and that's why we have so many. And that's why so many players have double necks. I'm an idiot who spreads himself too thin and likes to try to play all the genres. Rather than have a triple neck pedal steel with E9, C6 and SS E7, I have settled on an S12 E9/B6 uni with some pedals and knees for blues licks. You give up a little of each of the others, but still get most of all of them. But a 12-string 8&5 is a pretty complicated and expensive thing to try to start on as a beginner.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 19 December 2006 at 11:02 AM.]

Steve Hinson · From: Hendersonville Tn USA

.

------------------
http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage

[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 19 December 2006 at 11:27 AM.]

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

As a newbie to this instrument, and have 75% of my experience in Blues and Rock bands, I can tell you this is a daunting instrument. It a two side deal. One you have to present the instrument to your band mates and prove that it is not just for Country music. Which this here proves the point:
http://www.cartersteelguitars.com/csplayvideos/lagrange.wmv

Just watch that and argue that you need a different copeedent. I think the different tuning would only serve to make the guitar more approachable to these guys. I was discussing the guitar with a few rockers and I told them that it had the 9th note of the scale and that dew blanks. So its these hurdles you face. But man watch LaGrange and you know it can do rock or blues.

Why change? To make it approachable.

M.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

in regards to the 8 string idea, modern rock uses downtuning and drop tuning quite a bit these days and metalheads would LOVE the super low strings on a 12 string UNI...just sayin.

but then I guess we are talking about making a "starter" intrument, not purchasing a UNI.

I just wanna get the rock licks on an E9th 10 string because:
1. I cannot afford another guitar just for rock
2. I LOVE country E9th sounds as well as rock, blues, punk and metal and wanna play it ALL on the same guitar.
3. People have done it on an E9th in the past, therefor, I can do it on an E9th with some work and some time.

But mainly cause I cant afford another guitar

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