scales for C-6 and basic chord subs help!

Steve Waltz · From: USA

I'd like to stick to issues related to I IV V progressions. I need help with how to make my playing more interesting. I know standard major scales and how to move them to other positions so that I can use it for a new chord. I know the same thing for major and minor pentatonics. I know a lot of chords, and some basic theory and now I need more help.

How do I make a lead or fills sound more interesting?

I know that I can use different scales but what? Do I need to know chord substitutions better and then use the scale for those chords as a lead that hints to the chord substitution while the basic chord is still being played by the band? If so, how about a few basic examples. The monster thread on modes didn't work for me because it assumes, I guess, that one knows which scale or chord to use, other than the initial chord. Again, if were talking about a basic 1 4 5, there are only three chords and any other chords would have to be a substitution right??

I have seen examples of subs from the 5 to the 1, but what about while you are sitting on the 1 waiting for the 4 chord for example?

I have some info on chord subs and I can follow it but I wanted to get a better idea of standard subs in western swing, if there can be standards.

So much of what I have seen about substitutions comes from examples where all of the chords of a progression are already extended chords, what I'm talking about is when you have a basic progression with a V7 and that is about it.

Thanks in advance for any help,

Don't be afraid to tell me that I have no clue about music, it's probably true. I just want to learn.

Steve Walz

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Steve,

The monster thread on scales, chords and substitution does indeed answer the very questions you are asking. The trick to learning from the broad abstract of the thread is to first surf the thread and skip over postings that do not address your questions. You WILL find many answers to your questions in that thread, and in the chart and it's sidebars and it's accompanying text lessons. The sidebars on the chart that show the Maj7 and Dom7 scales are key. If you play along with songs YOU LIKE and just go up and down those scale positions, PARTICULARLY experimenting with all the possible harmonies available on multiple strings, doing so will lead you to discover the kind of licks that will fit into the movement of the music you're playing along to just like you are now asking.

Next, as the postings and woodshedding specific to your questions are absorbed and evolve into clearer meaning; Then other postings in the thread will also become clearer and valuable.

Such a large volume of information in that thread cannot be quickly absorbed by anyone who doesn't already know the information; So as a number of Others here have suggested, it takes time, patience, some "minimal" dedication and woodshedding over a period of time to take it "all" in; But the fullest intentions in the subject website lessons and chart was specifically written to be as simple a shortcut as "possible" through the abstract you have questioned, for Players with much less understanding and experience than what you obviously have (you are indeed clearly asking the right questions in the right context). There are a number of postings there that I have not yet absorbed because I too have not had the time to do so.

I think that thread has probably had more meaning to me than any other practical Steel / Theory educational resource I have ever encountered. It covers navigating the Steel neck all the way from very basic to quite advanced approaches and ideas.

I think you will see quite similar opinions answering your posted questions.

I would be happy to answer any other questions you might send me in private email ...although I certainly don't have all the answers!

Aloha,
Denny T~

(ps: Sorry for any typos here; My typing and vernacular ain't the best and almost always needs editing, ...but I haven't the time right now to edit!)

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 03 January 2005 at 07:54 PM.]

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Denny, you must be busier than a dog with two......bones.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 03 January 2005 at 08:32 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

A difficult, but rewarding exercise would be to find a solo or lick that you like, transcribe it and analyze it in terms that make sense to you (chord subs or modes or what have you).

Also, remember that there are more ways to make one's playing more interesting than just learning about scales. Rhythmic ideas often "play" better to listeners than scale stuff, for example.

Good topic.

-Travis

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

The link for C6 modal scales is in Feedback FAQ

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 January 2005 at 01:16 AM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Thank You Travis. Yes, running scales is not music (although it can be) and certainly only a small but important part of woodshedding.

I failed to mention that practicing scales is a rudimentary repetitive exercise to train the eyes, ears, brain & fingers to become accomplished in correct notes, patterns and positions, so that a given scale / pattern / position becomes more and more second nature. What is subsequently discovered and accomplished via the armature of scales is what is important, not running the scales as Music; Although we can't escape the fact that most melodies, harmonies and accompanyment are indeed built from scales; And the "monster thread" does indeed use scales as the language to convey the information and ideas there. I know of no other efficient language to convey and gain command of substitution REQUIRED on non-pedal steel. Of course the Steel can also be played and enjoyed by memorizing songs, licks, passages (etc) and applying that to other means of mental navigation; But the quite easy mastery of the Maj7 and Dom7 scale pattern and knowing where to place it in substitution is quite easy and opens up a barn door of insight and capabilities.

------------

Steve,

Sitting down and starting to run scales invariably leads us to find other licks / expressions congruent with how we are thinking of root and relative notes, harmonies, tones (etc) by practicing a given scale. Being able to relate what we are hearing and playing to armatures / anchors of scales is kinda like the mental picture we process when driving down the road and planning our route without making too many wrong turns or running off of the road too much. Icing on the cake is that just the Maj7 and Dom7 scale patterns, and knowing where to place them on the Steel Guitar, covers a heck of ALLOT of ground.

As we find and practice licks and passages applicable to the mental scale we are woodshedding upon, ...those licks and passages further serve to anchor our mental picture of where we're at in our playing.

Also, the more we woodshed with scale position and patterns, and the brain/muscle motor thang thus becomes more and more second nature, ... the more we discover and realize the inter-relationships between even same scales, licks, passages (etc) relative to different roots and position perspectives (the substitution thang). Case in point is the direct relationship between IMaj7 being the very same notes / position / fret-box as V7, ...and IV7 being the same notes / position / box as Imin7; Which means that we play IV7 notes in it's scale position to get the scale notes of Imin7.

But I regress: How are we to play melody, harmony and/or chords if we are not reasonably well grounded upon the navigation armature of scales, their substitutions for each other and their positions for the song / piece we're trying to play.

It was a rather profound break-through for me anyway, to realize that the 7 qualities of scales / chords most commonly used in western-hemisphere music (Maj7, min7, min7b9, sus4, Dom7, min7b6, and min7b6b9(half dim) ) ...(aka the 7 "church" modes)... could be EASILY located / expressed and used as navigation armatures simply by moving the Dom7 scale pattern into the positions on the fretboard where that Dom7 pattern notes become each of those scale qualities for a given root / key.

It is enlightening to realize that the song Sleepwalk is played in tonic key scale of IMaj7, ....and mostly within a range of 4 frets that comprise IMaj7, IV7, VI7=IVmin7, and V7. Having that mental picture also affords us the ability to vamp / woodshed our scrooples away with that song / those chord changes ....to our hearts' content.

Once we realize these substitution relationships on the Steel and gain a reasonable command of the scale and chord positions, (and it IS quite easy with a bit of patience, reading and woodshedding) it becomes quite easy to play along with Steel recordings where great ideas and personal techniques can develop, ...and likewise playing along with CD's of other simpler styles of music we enjoy. I find 1950's and early 1960's honkey tonk music very enjoyable and rewarding to play along with in the woodshed.

Yee-ghads; Yank my power chord................. zzzzzztt

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 04 January 2005 at 10:11 AM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

You got that right Howard; I'm 'bout as busy and dizzy as an octopus in heat......

Aloha (means I don't have a clue whether I'm coming or going),
DT~

Steve Waltz · From: USA

Denny,

I appreciate the work that you have done. I printed it out this summer and took it to Hawaii for two weeks and tried to go through it but like you pointed out I should have sifted through alot of the posts and just looked for what I needed. I'm going to give it another try and if you don't mind I will email you with silly questions. I'll try to make the slide rule thing. Everyone learns differently and I will need to look at your stuff it another way.

I did learn last night that a substitute chord for a A7 could be a Eminor7? Or a more basic change would be to go from A7 to an A9 or 13. Tell me, is it a bad idea to figure out the arpegios for each of these cords in one position like on the 9th fret and then learn similar arpegios of the 4 and 5 chords in that same position on or around the 9th fret... why do I have a feeling that is what your info is about.....I'm leaving to go read.

P.S. how about just one example of a 12bar in A with some nice subs?

John Potter · From: Solihull, United Kingdom

12 bar in A ( all 7th's)

|A | A | A | A | D |D | A | A | E | D | A | E |

or

| A7 | Csharp min7b5| A/Csharp| A13 A7+5| D9 | Ab7| A7 Bmin7| A/Csharp Cdim| Bmin7 Bb7| Amin7 Ab7 | A7 Bmin7| Bb7 E7|

split bars two beats to each chord.

Steve Waltz · From: USA

john,

I'm going to figure out what each subs is tonight,by that I mean how they were choosen, I think I recognize a number of them. You wouldn't want to tab your chord voicings would you? maybe? just a little? just for a few chords.

I can find all of the chords, I have just been running into problems figuring out the voicings that i like and then getting them to lie close to each other.

Thanks for the example, I really appreciate the help that I get here.

steve

John Potter · From: Solihull, United Kingdom

Oh Steve I'm so sorry - I replied to your post almost as a reflex - I'm new here, only just starting on C6th lap steel - I just looked at it as a swing rythm guitar part!

Subs should still work, but I wouldn't know best voicings on the steel.

Blimey, food for thought though? Sorry once again
JP

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Key of A

C6 Tuning (lo to hi) C E G A C E



	5		1		5		Open


3		7		3			First Fret


4	6	1	2	4	6		Second Fret (IV-D6 Chord))


							Third Fret


5	7	2	3	5	7		Fourth Fret (V- E6Chord)


	1		4		1		Fifth Fret 


6		3		6			Sixth Fret


	2	4	5		2		Seventh Fret


7				7			Eighth Fret


1	3	5	6	1	3  		Ninth Fret (Homebase A6)


	4				4		Tenth Fret


2		6	7	2			Eleventh Fret


	5		1		5		Twelth Fret


3		7		3			Thirteenth Fret


4	6	1	2	4	6		Fourteenth Fret (IV)


							Fifteenth Fret


5	7	2	3	5	7		Sixtenth Fret (V)


	1		4		1		Sevententh Fret





A Chord = 1,3,5





D Chord = 4,6,1





E7 Chord = 5,7,2,4


 -------------------


Bm Chord = 2,4,6





C#m Chord = 3,5,7





F#m Chord = 6,1,3





G# dim = 7,2,4

Here a "different way" of lookin' at all this ... using the number system.

While the band is playin' A ... you are free to cruise around using the A major scale ... as long as you "pause" or "hold" on the 1,3 or 5 ... and 7b if they are playin' A7.

While they are playin' the D ... you are free to cruise around using the A major scale ... as long as you "pause" or "hold" on the 4,6,1
... and 3b if they are playin' D7

While they are playin' the E7 ... you are free to cruise around using the A major scale ... as long as you "pause" or "hold" on the 5,7,2 or 4.

The other "properly" harmonized chords in that key are listed also ... Bm, C#m and F#m ...

So if the band substitutes one of these ... you will know where to "pause" and/or "hold".

No note you use to "pass by" is bad ... its just the ones you hold ... that's the important one.

The whole template can be moved to accomodate different keys ...

Hope this gets you started ...

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 04 January 2005 at 07:26 PM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Oh, I forgot ... if the "Number System" works for you ...

Here is alot more Stuff ...

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Steve,

I combed Threadzilla tonight (6:00 AM now

) for more-basic and simpler practcal postings, so Folks desiring / needing the simpler stuff can find it easier without having to wade through the lengthy advanced abstract / theory and debate, and can then go back to study the entire thread once the simpler practical things are reviewed. There is quite a bit of immediately simple and practical stuff in the index list of those combed postings I posted here.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 05 January 2005 at 08:14 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I'm always learning stuff and have just accepted that there are many different ways to look at how we get a cool sounding melodic line. Different instruments have in breed ways of pulling notes out and have different approaches and ways of looking at it all that work best for that instrument. Scales are just chords with exstensions ergo "Chord/scale". Substitutions still relate to the basic harmony the rest of the band is playing at the moment. So, you can play something totally different than the band that gives you weird intervals you wouldn't normally come up with with the basic approach, but it still is the intervals relative to what the band is playing in the end. Jazz and classical and all good music for that matter place chordal tones on the 1 and 3 beat of the measure in 4/4 for example. This is something you have to work at. However, playing related modes from the same parent major scale produces some interesting intervals without worrying about beats 1 and 3 e.g. the band is playing D minor 7 Dorian and your playing E phrygian. The E is still the 9th of the bands D minor 7 chord and so on, but the different figering gives different cool easy to play intervals than just playing D dorian. Yea, there's rules and you should know them to break them. I think learning from players that really move you from the beginning to the end of their songs and putting the intervals under the notes and seeing how they relate to the chords of the song is one of the best ways to start really sounding good. Your own personality will always start coming out after awhile anyways.<

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 12 January 2005 at 03:34 PM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

It's enlightening to realize 2 things:

(1) What we have become acustomed to calling a 6th chord, is actually voiced in the Dom7 fretboard box and not the Maj7 box, and;

(2) The scale notes for CM7, Dm7, Em7b9, F+4, G7, Am7b6 and Bm7b9b5b6(half-dim), ...(which are the scales of the 7 church modes)..., all reside in the same fretboard box, because they all have the same notes. Hmmmmm ...that would mean that the notes of their chords would also reside in the same box. So we just need to know where to move the box up and down the neck to transpose any or all of those scales / chords / modes / subs to whatever root we desire; In other words, if Dm7 is in that box, then Cm7 box must be 2 frets lower, ... while the Em7 box is 2 frets higher, ... etc etc. The box 2 frets below the CM7 box contains BbM7 and the same 7 scale qualities derived from BbM7; While the DM7 box and it's same relative / mode scales are 3 frets higher than CM7 box.

Since the fret intervals between boxes will remain the same for any key, we need only to change the root Alpha notes to the number system (I, II, III, IV, etc etc)and voila, we get the modal navigation / substitution template that's quite easy to memorize.

Next, until the memorized template becomes second nature, ...we need to use one of the 7 scales / chords to use as a starting point to measure from. I find that our old familiar 6th chord (Dom7 box) works best for most of us because that's the one we've learned to navigate the 6th tuned Steel by for many years now. So if I want to play Im7 chord I know it's located 3 frets higher than I6 chord, at the bIII6 chord position; While IM7 chord is at the V6 chord position; Etc etc.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 09 January 2005 at 09:29 AM.]

Aaron Schiff · From: Cedaredge, CO, USA

For those of us who are intermittent visitors, would somebody give the link to "the monster thread"? I tried searching for "mode" and "scale" in the title section for "No Peddlers" and got lots of hits that didn't look like what was being discussed.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Aaron,

It's provided above in posting "05 January 2005 08:04 AM".

Aloha,
DT~

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

It is alspo now in the feedback sections FAQ thread

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