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Topic: New lap steel by Wayne/Charvel, SEXY |
Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 11:20 am |
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www.wayneguitars.com/lapsteel.html
Interesting entry to the steel community, and LOOKS like it should sound good.
I'd rewire the knob for tone. And why (why not) a scale of 23.5? What's up with the bridge and nut?
Any thots/owners out there?
* Check out the new/Nov. issue of 'Vintage Guitar' for a good review and pic.
[This message was edited by Ron Whitfield on 28 October 2004 at 08:55 PM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 12:43 pm
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I like it. But I'm not sure about some of their claims. A pickup is an electro-magnetic device, ain't it? Why would vibrations in the wood transfer into a pickup? What does vibrating wood have to do with makin' electricity? Sure,wood selection and other physical characteristics such as fixed/bolt-on neck, nut and bridge materials, etc., can have an effect on how loudly or how long the strings may vibrate, and thereby create more of a magnetic field with the pickup, but does vibrating wood create more electricity? I'm quite possibly wrong, but couldn't you mount the pup in Jello? Gibson pups are frequently mounted with springs, Fenders with surgical tubing or springs.
All that said, I still like the guitar! JB |
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 1:08 pm
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...
Last edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 13 Sep 2019 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 3:04 pm
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As simply as I can relate/understand this--The pickup sees the string vibration.
The body of the instrument affects the vibration of the string that the pickup is seeing. That is why the exact same pickup mounted to 10 different guitars made of different materials/body types etc. will have 10 different sounds.
Also take under consideration two identical guitars made from the same species of wood. The differences in the density of the wood, grain structure, weight etc. will cause a difference in the sound even though they have the same electro magnetic pickup. Sometimes the sound difference is subtle, sometimes remarkable. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 4:12 pm
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Bill is right,- personally I treat all electric guitars as acoustic instruments, and test their acoustic properties well before I plug them in.
In my opinion a good magnetic pickup should reflect the acoustic tone of the instrument.
I don't quite know what to say about the Charvel,- "sexy"? Mmmmmmm, my Asher is "sexy", the Charvel is more like "cute"... I think I like it..
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 20 September 2004 at 05:46 PM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 6:55 pm
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Jeff, Bill, and Steinar, I think you're are all pretty much agreeing with me. I talked about all those issues, and I agree that a good sounding body is of vital importance, and it certainly effects the strings. The pickups pick up what the string is doing, not actually what the wood (or whatever material the guitar is made of) is doing. On their site, they make the statement that "The pickup is direct mounted to the body for increased sustain and tone. By mounting the pickups directly to the body, the body's vibrations are transferred to the pickups, giving more sustain than conventional mounted pickups." I don't belive that can be true. Remember Les Paul's early experiments. I believe that the first ones involved a piece of railrod track! And, of course, the infamous "Log". The pickup sense the strings vibrations, not the vibrations of the body. If you string up a guitar with monofilament fishing line, will the pickup work? I don't think it will. Yet you'll be able to hear the guitar acoustcally, and the wood will vibrate, but there's no vibrating metal in the pickups magnetic field, hence, no signal. Again, I recognize the importance of a good body, that vibrates nicely, but I don't think mounting the pickup directly to the body could have any noticable effect. If it did, every builder would do it.
I DO like the looks of this guitar, and would consider buying one. But I'm perfectly happy with the Redneck I got from Loni.
Does this make sense? Or am I nutz?
Best, JB |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 7:16 pm
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| Or,,,are all pickups microphonic? I have an ancient Broadcaster pup that's pretty microphonic, but I wouldn't consider that beneficial. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 7:23 pm
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quote:
Does this make sense? Or am I nutz?
It *sort of* makes sense, I see your point.
However, this is not the first time I've seen people claim that a pickup mounted directly to the body will sound better (guitarist Eddie Van Halen swears by mounting the pickups this way).
The only reason I can think of is that by making the pickup vibrate more it will make it slightly more microphonic, something that does contribute to the sustain and tone. The downside is of course that once a pickup gets too microphonic it will start to act like a regular microphone and feed back. But I've always found that a slightly microphonic pickup sounds a bit more airy and open than one that has been drowned in wax so the windings are dead tight.
I guess it's one of those things that there will always be different opinions about, just like the eternal question "How much better is a string through body design compared to top mounted strings". It's all quite marginal I guess....... Guitarist Eric Johnnson claims that he can hear a difference between various brands of batteries in his effect pedals, and also in which way the guitar cable is plugged in. Go figure....... Sometimes it's best to just play the thing and stop worrying so much. 
Doesn't pickup wizard Jason Lollar stop by here from time to time? I'm sure he has an opinion on this.
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 20 September 2004 at 08:32 PM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 7:57 pm
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Jason has rewound pickups for me, and I wish he would chime in, cuz I really don't know the answer. I may be using faulty logic. I'm really curious about this. Would the vibrations in the wood actually be "in tune" with the electro-magnetic fields generated by the string/pickup interaction. I think I'll email jason and see if I can get him to chime in, cuz he'll be able to sort this out. I hope that my thoughts have been expressed clearly, as I know virtually nothing about this subject. And maybe it shows!
JB
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Chuck Fisher
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Sep 2004 11:56 pm
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I know strats with metal pickguards sound different than when they are fitted with plastic pickguards. I think the claim is on the level, and thick lacquer especially fresh surely mutes acoustic guitars.
I also think all pickups are at least bit microphonic, although potting in wax or similar dampens this a lot.
One things for sure, Charvelle made some real nice guitars, flowerey description or not, this is likly real good. I like lacquer anyway, BTW. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2004 3:45 am
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If you hold the strings perfectly still ... and oscillate a magnet over them at 220 Hz ... you will get an "A" note produced in the coil ...
So its not just the strings ... its the movement of the magnets (body) ... in concert with the strings .. that gives you the signal.
And since the sting and the body will not have the same wave functions (due to size, shape, material) ... there will be a summation occuring.
This may not be much ... but its all part of the "package".
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HorseshoeMagnets
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 21 September 2004 at 04:52 AM.] |
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2004 12:31 pm
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I just bought one of these guitars and i'll post a review when it arrives. I'm guessing the 23.5 inch scale is intentionally exactly in between the traditional 22.5 and 24.5. Anyone here had experience with the Seymour Duncan P-90s on a steel?
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Dan Sawyer
Fender Deluxe 8® (stringmaster), Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Gibson EH-150, Wayne Lap Steel |
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Jason Lollar
From:
Seattle area
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Posted 21 Sep 2004 4:08 pm
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As asked by John B I came and took a look.
I used to have more time to hang out, take a day off here and there, those days are long gone.
There is a combination of alot of things going on that everyone mentioned. The factor people overlook or underestimate is pickup microphonics. Of course too much microphonics can make a pickup unusable so there is a balance there but I can usually tell after listening to a pickup for half a minute if it has any microphonics. Once you clue into the sound it produces its unmistakeable- there is a presence to the sound that is lacking in a heavily potted pickup.
even a waxed pickup will have some level of microphonics- the way the pickup is mounted can have an effect which could be more or less depending on the level of microphonics, the method of mounting and the materials used.
thats my story and i am sticking with it.
I need to talk to wayne! |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2004 5:50 pm
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| Thanks Jason and Rick. Does that mean I'm nutz? Guess so! |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2004 7:59 pm
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| Rick, interesting site, but I'm not sure about what it has to do with vibrating wood causing a pickup to produce an electronic signal. Did I miss something on the site? I certainly agree that the way a guitar body vibrates has an effect on the way the strings respond, creating all sorts of obvious and subtle variations in the vibration of the strings. But what I still don't understand is how a piece of wood vibrating creates a signal from the pup????? If I mounted a pickup on a 2 foot piece of 2X6, no strings, just wood, and vibrated the 2X6, would there be a signal created from the pup? I'm thinkin' the pup would have to be mucho microphonic to get any sound, and it probably wouldn't be a good sound. If I'm correct, and I really don't know if I am, then why would Charvel's mounting a pup directly to the body have an effect on sustain and tone? It seems like it would be, at best, an invitation to feedback. And, again, if what Charvel says is true, why doesn/t every guitar manufacturer mount ther pups that way? Thanks for all your patience! JB [This message was edited by John Billings on 21 September 2004 at 09:10 PM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 7:31 am
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Thanks Rick! I think I'll stop chewin' on this bone now!
I do like the looks of the Charvel, and I've always liked the P-90 style pup. I like all Gibson single coils, just don't like humbuckers. I will be interested to hear Dan Sawyer's review JB |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 8:53 am
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Well, if you do get the urge to "gnaw" alittle more ...
Direct Coupling
Jeff Terwilleger ... scroll down to "Pickups" ...
Their "statistics" and explainations may be abit "thin" ... but apparently they are real serious about this stuff ... |
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 9:54 am
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The issue I have when reading anything off Mr. Roman's site is separating the bombast from the fact. (Like imagining Ted Nugent playing Moonlight in Vermont or Dick Dale playing a minuet.)
But I agree that Mr. Terwilliger states his case very reasonably.
It makes sense to me that anything that influences the equation of relative motion between the string and the pickup would influence the sound. It's a question of degree, mostly. Blastedly difficult to AB blind test. AB testing philosophies could be another whole thread, as could this...
[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 22 September 2004 at 11:00 AM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 10:10 am
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I certainly didn't post the link to Ed Roman for his expertise on any subject ...
In fact I said both his and JETs explaination was "thin" ...
More to respond to ...
| Quote: |
| I recognize the importance of a good body, that vibrates nicely, but I don't think mounting the pickup directly to the body could have any noticable effect. If it did, every builder would do it. |
As always, I'm just tryin' to explain stuff the best i know how.
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 10:22 am
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Ah, Rick, Ed Roman,,,,,,,,Be careful of this guy! Most do not consider him credible on any matters. If you go over to the FDP, and do a search, you'll find amazing amounts of material proving what an incredible jerk he is. Some of the stories are dumbfounding. Some of what he says may actually be right, but you'd need other sources before accepting Roman's word. He's a shameless self-promoter, and, according to other postings about him, he will say anything to boost his products and discredit other's. I've never had any dealings with him, but this is what the vast majority say about him.
Best, JB |
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 10:33 am
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...
Last edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 13 Sep 2019 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 10:42 am
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| Quote: |
| but you'd need other sources before accepting Roman's word. |
Again ... I wasn't posting this link for Ed Rowans advice, statistics, views, etc ...
Merely to show its not only Charvel that is using this "Direct" approach to pickup mounting.
John, the only source I used to try and describe/explain to you the benefits of mounting a pickup as tightly to the body of a guitar as possible ...
Was Faraday's Law of Induction. |
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2004 11:22 am
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Some more thoughts. I actually agree with Jeff and think it's kind of ugly. Especially the peghead. I figured i could always cut some of that excess wood off the headstock if it really bothers me. So why did i buy this? I want to experiment with mounting palm pedals or a hipshot on a lap steel and that requires at least 6.5 inches behind the bridge. The Wayne lap steel has plently of room there, looks to be well built and has the cool aircraft aluminum bridge and nut. BTW, it is not a "Charvel" brand guitar. It is a Wayne. Charvel was his old company.
Update: the guitar still hasn't arrived, but it looks like there might NOT be 6.5 inches behing the bridge. Oh well, i'll still post a review when it arrives.
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Dan Sawyer
Fender Deluxe 8® (stringmaster), Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Gibson EH-150, Wayne Lap Steel[This message was edited by Dan Sawyer on 26 September 2004 at 02:03 PM.] |
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