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Topic: Baritone Weissenborns |
Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2004 12:36 am |
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| I played the best Weissenborn I have ever heard in Florida last month when I played at the Sacred Steel Convention in Florida. It was a Mermer, made down in Florida. A 'baritone' model, by far the best sounding Weissenborn type I have ever heard. I do like tuning way down (this was tuned down to C). Are there any other baritone Weissenborns I should know about? |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Jun 2004 1:13 am
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I know Rance White of Lazy River Guitars, who built my latest Weissenborn, is to build a 30" scale baritone for forumite Ron Bednar. I'm sure he'll join to tell us more.
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2004 8:53 am
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Yep, somebody mentions baritones and here I am...
Rance is in fact building me a 30" scale for B and A tuning. After doing much reading and talking with baritone builders the 30" was settled on. Anything less than a 28" scale and it's not a baritone, no matter what the tuning. Mermer guitars are really beautiful and I am happy to hear they sound as good as they look. I could not afford one at this time. But Rance at Lazy River Guitars can put you in the driver's seat of a baritone for a very reasonable amount. Drop Rance an email and tell him Steinar and Ron sent you.
http://www.lazyriverguitars.com/
Along with Keith Hunter, we are forming The Lazy River Weiss Club. I am designing Tee's and baseball hats. Join the club! |
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John Bushouse
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Posted 26 Jun 2004 10:40 am
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| Question: What tunings do you play in? Do you use slants very often, and if so, how much more difficult will they be with such a long scale? |
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2004 11:19 am
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| John, I use open D and plan on going down to B and A using the same form as open D. I don't play slants that much, mainly because I have a problem with my left hand and cannot use a regular bar so slants involve pivoting my whole wrist. I use a couple GS steels and have experimented with adapting one of the wood handles to a longer bar. Another thing I have been learning from Pete Grant is how to make major amd minor 3rds in D without slanting. It will be fun to explore and I plan on trying other tunings as well. Might be interesting to see what C6 would sound like down there. |
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John Bushouse
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Posted 26 Jun 2004 11:44 am
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I'm mainly an open G player (fDGDgbd) and use a lot of 1st string - 3rd string slants spanning a couple of frets. My guitar has a 23" scale, so it's not too hard to cover the split. Maybe I'd just have to get a longer bar...
I hope when you finally get your bari you'll post some samples. Sounds like a cool instrument! |
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 1:17 am
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I have wanted a baritone Weissenborn copy ever since hearing David Lindley's seven string Canopus (low to high: GDGDGBD; he's also got one that's a six string that leaves off the high D for an "Open C" shape tuned down to G--and I think he even sometimes tunes that down to an F).
The only one I know of aside from the Canopus is the Bear Creek "Bear-Tone." Bear Creek makes one for a ridiculous amount of money--Sixty-five hundred dollars US (almost $9000 Canadian). What an enormously overpriced instrument. What unbelievable gall to charge that much. I think the Canopus would probably be closer to $3500. Better...
Thing is, I'll bet any builder would be willing to build you one. Locally (for me--but also sort of for you, Dan, since you're just down the road in Seattle), Michael Dunn and Neil Russell make Weissenborn copies, and they've each said they'd be happy to build a baritone model if someone wanted one.
That reminds me, does anyone know if there are any special design consderations with a baritone guitar? Or do you just get bigger pieces of wood for the top and a longer piece of wood for the neck and that's it?
-Travis |
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John Bushouse
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 7:09 am
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| Actually, the Beartone's down to $4500 (I know, still a lot of $$$). |
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 7:35 am
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I am not a builder, but the builders I spoke with all agreed that the scale length for a baritone is increased by 15% over the 25.5 of the regular Weiss, and the body dimensions need to follow suite. For open A that I plan on tuning to the string gauges will be 18, 26, 32, 45, 56, 80, they need more volume to resonate.
Travis - Where did you get the price for the Bear-Tone? Their site lists it at a base of $4500, still too much for me anyway. Interesting in that it's scale length is only 27". A couple baritone builders I spoke with were both adamant that a scale length of less than 28' was not a baritone guitar.
There is an 8 string Weiss available from Buckdancer's Choice http://www.buckdancers.com/acousticlapsteelguitar.html
But they won't be in production again until November. But it's price is only $1195 I believe.
Again, give Rance at Lazy River Guitars a yell, his baritone price is below the Canopus. |
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 8:00 am
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| John - I just thought of something that didn't occur to me when I answered your earlier question about slants. With that long scale length theres likely to be a "sitar bar buzz" with longer slants, especially with the thicker strings on a baritone. You get that a lot on reverse 3rds in D between the 1st and 2nd frets anyway. I can only imagine it would be worse with a longer scale length and heavier strings. Another good reason to look to none slant positions and other tunings. [This message was edited by Ron Bednar on 27 June 2004 at 09:01 AM.] |
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 11:06 am
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My mistake on the Beartone. The last I had checked (probably last year some time) it was still $6500. I guess now it's just way overpriced, not enormously so. 
As for the dimensions, if I understand correctly you're telling me that it is just a matter of making everything bigger in proportion to the new scale length? There are no other special considerations? That's interesting...
-Travis |
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Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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John Bushouse
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 12:37 pm
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Alright then, $5.250 it is! 
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
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Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 12:50 pm
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| John -- Maybe the difference is tax, license and destination charges ... |
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 1:59 pm
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| Travis - No not just making everything bigger, bracing and neck reinforcement has got to be done to take into consideration the enormous pressure that the heavier gauges will bring. But like I said, I'm not a builder, I just gleaned some tidbits from my email and conversations with 3 baritone builders. I am sure there are other factors that they figure in. [This message was edited by Ron Bednar on 27 June 2004 at 03:00 PM.] |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2004 11:38 pm
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Thanks for the contributions, everybody! I did sit down with Lindley's bari Weissenborns and was impressed, but the Mermer guitar simply knocked me out. What was impressive was that the low end, while impressive, was completely balenced with the high end. He attributed it to his bracing, which is different from standard guitar bracing. I don't know from adam about guitar building, but I do know a great sounding guitar.
For me the negative about the Mermer was the amazing woodwork. Not that I don't think it's beautiful, but I've never owned such a georgeous instrument, and I know how I abuse them.......
PS, Russ and Steinar, can you send me an email with your address. I need to send you reciepts for your generous donations to the Sacred Steel Instrument fund. (My computer just died) |
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Dwight Mark
From:
Denver, Colorado, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2004 8:16 pm
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This forum is dangerous... I guess I'd call it "WAS not WAS" like the band. Weissenborn Acquisition Syndrome. I've been on a break for a while...
I honestely cannot imagine a 30" scale Weissenborn. Brozman's recordings sound great with the 27" scale and when he holds it, it looks like he could get inside and paddle away back to Australia from Hawaii in it - it is huge...
I also tune down to low C, but have been using the real Weissenborn for that still... Do any of you have recordings of the Weissenborns tuned down below C?
Dwight |
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Ron Bednar
From:
Rancho Cordova, California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2004 9:13 pm
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Dwight, I just heard from the builder today. He finished the form for the 30" baritone and did a test bend with some wood he had. Said it is going to be like building a cello. I need to decide on the wood and then it's a go.
No, I have not heard a Weiss tuned below C. I am wondering, really, if it will be able to play chords down that low without the notes turning to mush? I don't know...there's only one way to find out.
It's going to be really fun I think. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2004 10:55 pm
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One of Linday's was tuned down to G, with the low G being an octave below a dobro tuning. He used what he called a Leo Kotke tuning, which was tuned (from high to low):
3
1
5
1
5
1
He was totally masterfull. |
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Dwight Mark
From:
Denver, Colorado, USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2004 4:27 am
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I am about to release my CD, which will have 3 songs tuned in an open D shape down to C. I was just curious if anyone else out there is doing this and has problems. I only have problems with the intonation of the low string as I go up the neck. It goes sharp.
I also do simple slants - I don't know if their in pitch - I'm not the cleanest player, but I do slant just to hit some minor chords.
My style 1 is built fairly light compared to the style 2 and another style 1 that I sold, and I think the lighter ones are more responsive and can still sing with the low tuning.
I'd also like a little rocket type weissenborn that could get me up to "G" in the open D shape...
I wonder if you'll be able to keep the instrument stable on your lap, or if you'll need to play it on a coffee table or something - ha! Imagine the calton case for that baby, too. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
Keep us posted on the wood choices...
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Bob Stone
From:
Gainesville, FL, USA
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Jun 2004 5:14 am
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Hmmmmmmm........
Seems like I need to order myself a 4-string bass Weissenborn..... I already have a mandolin set up with four strings and tuned to a high A, for piccolo slide...
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
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Dwight Mark
From:
Denver, Colorado, USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2004 11:27 am
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Now Steinar, is it a custom built mandolin setup for slide? I'm still waiting for the day when I see Steinar with a real, vintage Weissenborn in his lap, and now an old National resophonic mandolin strapped on.
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 29 Jun 2004 1:17 pm
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I think 'Twango Bango II' has a track ('King of the Bed') with a Weissenborn tuned down to Bb from C. There are probably other examples of this strewn throughout his CDs.
As for tuning a D shape down to C, I'll bet with the right guages it could be done, but I've tried it before with the normal guages and the F# string (in D) gets pretty slack when tuned down to an E. Tuning it to C# works fine.
Also, Charlie Hase, a Vancouver steel player, has a mandolin with a raised nut that he tunes to an open G (he keeps the string pairs). He has recorded it on his album 'Slide Groove' and it sounds really cool. I can probably find his e-mail address for you if you want to order a copy from him. The album as a whole has some very cool stuff on it, and aside from the drums it's all played lap style. He has a four-string bass with a raised nut that he uses for the bass parts, he uses a few different guitars (reso and flat-top) for rhythm and lead, and much of it is played on his pedal steel (double-neck Zum with an E9 neck and a special eight string C tuning on the bottom neck which he designed himself--a cross between the open G and open D shapes but in C--where he can get minor chords, sixths, sevenths etc. with the pedals). A very unconventional steel album.
-Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 30 June 2004 at 01:28 AM.] |
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