Why is it so

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I have had my guitar tuned to a Peterson tuner with Jeff Newman presets, then have a pro player sit down and retune it. Then have another pro sit down next and tune it again.
It seems no one plays just like another.
My ? is why did he retune it as soon as it was tuned to a meter that is supposed to be the best, and most accurate on the market.

Could this be the answer why so much contraversy on how to tune this instrument.
It seems tuning is the most problimatic thing about playing steel guitar.
What are your thoughts on this.

Oh yes one player stopped by my house and set down and tuned for 30 Min. when He left i checked the tunning and played on it and it sounded bad, when he played it it sounded good,I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS THING ABOUT TUNING.

ernie

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well EC, everybody seems to have their own preference for tuning. Don't lose the settings you like.

Make them put it back the way they found it.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 June 2006 at 05:59 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Ernie,
I don't think you will find many people who play for a living who tune to the Jeff Newman tuning chart. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the tuner -- it has to do with the tuning chart. Jeff published that chart to help players who haven't learned how to tune. Most experienced players I know tune to their own system. Some have a chart and use a tuner and many just start with one standard note from a tuner and go from there.

If you listen to Eric (or Buddy Emmons or Weldon Myrick), you will tune pretty much straight up to the tuner; if you listen to me you will tune somewhere in between Jeff Newman's chart and 'straight up'; Paul Franklin tunes one note to the piano and the rest by ear, as do many others. Few even agree on which note is the right one to use as the standard. Some swear by tuning to the A referenced at 440Hz. Some tune the E relative to A440 and others to 441 or 442. The amazing thing is that THEY ALL PLAY IN TUNE. BUT they all are most comfortable tuned the way THEY hear it. That's why they changed the tuning.

NOW . . .
I think it is very rude to doctor another player's tuning at a jam or show and not return it as it was before especially without asking first. If you can't play it without retuning you should ASK the owner if it's ok. Otherwise, just DON'T PLAY IT.
(that's my humble opinion in any case)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mark Edwards · From: Weatherford,Texas, USA

Remember what Frued said! If it's not one thing it's your mother.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ernest, I think Jeff's presets (or any else's, for that matter) were meant to help get the guitar "close"...they're not gospel. Presets will vary from one guitar to the other, due to different string lengths, different string guages, different ambient temperatures, and even different players. Our ears, and not some number on a meter, should be the final judge as to whether or not the guitar is in tune.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

I can usually tune by ear if I get it there within the first few minutes. It does seem that the more time I spend trying to "fine-tune" the tuning by ear, the more screwed up it gets...

Joseph Meditz · From: Sierra Vista, AZ

Hi Ernest,

The reason is this. When you tune with a Peterson tuner you are tuning the fundamental. When you tune by ear you are tuning to harmonics wherin you declare the instrument to be in tune when the harmonics beat at a certain rate. However, as has been said on this forum, the frequencies of the harmonics on a real instrument differ very slightly from where they are expected to be mathematically in the harmonic series. Hence, tuning always involves compromise and is an art in itself.

In the end it is as b0b says, "If it sounds in tune it is in tune!"

Joe

David Doggett · Posted 27 Jun 2006 7:11 am

Ernest, I assume you understand the difference between the natural beatless harmonic tuning of Just Intonation (JI) and the artificial compromise Equal Temper (ET) tuning of a meter (straight up with no presets). The term "temper" means to vary from Just Intonation. True JI is untempered. There are also tuning systems in between these called Mean Tone (MT). There are some formal rules for MT, but many players use their own informal compromise between JI and ET, and these are sometimes whymsically called "tampered" tunings. If you don't know about these different tuning systems, do a search on these terms here on on the internet. Newman's tuning chart is close to JI. As Larry says, many players tune close to JI by ear, and may use a chart if they are in a situation where they can't hear and must tune by sight to a meter. That's what Newman's chart was intended for.

But there are some things unique to each guitar and to each player that need to be factored in. One of these is the amount of cabinet drop. This is not only unique to each guitar, but also can be unique to each player, because pressing harder or softer on the pedals and levers affects the amount of cabinet drop. Also, bar pressure, and slight variations in bar angle, are unique to each player, and these also affect intonation. Experienced players become accustomed to playing in tune with JI or ET or their own tampered in-between tuning, and with their own accustomed pedal pressure and bar pressure, etc. Therefore, it is easier for them to play in tune when they tune to their accustomed tuning method. That's why they sound good when they retune to their preferences. But you are not accusomed to their preferences, and that may be why you don't sound good to yourself if you use their tuning tweaks. But once you tweak the tuning back to what you are accustomed to, you sound in tune to yourself.

I'm not sure it is rude to retune a guitar without returning it to the original tuning. It certainly is polite to ask permission to retune. But if someone better than me sits down at my guitar (which would be most any steeler that might come along), I would be happy for him to tweak the tuning to his preference and show me some good stuff at his best. Once he has done that, it is a bit unrealistic to expect him to know how to return the tuning to my unique preferences. It is better off being left alone. Then when I sit back down at it, I will retweak it the same as he did. This is all just very standard practice. Everyone likes to have the tuning tweaked to their preference, so they can play their best without struggling with intonation with an unfamiliar tuning system.

Some players, who are frankly ignorant of the long history and complexity of tuning systems, naively believe there is only one "in tune;" and for some of these it is what the straight up meter says, and for others it is what their ears say. It is true that our ears gravitate to JI, and that is how vocalists and instruments with variable pitch (fretless strings and horns) attempt to harmonize. On the other hand, fixed pitch percussion instruments such as keyboards and fretted strings must tune close to ET in order to play all chords and all keys roughly in tune. Players can become accustomed to one or the other, or something in between - so what is "in tune" can be quite different for different musicians.

The steel guitar has more complicated tuning issues than most other instruments. This is because we have both fixed pitch strings, but use a movable bar rather than fixed frets. But mainly it is because we tune to full chords with 3rds, 6ths and 7ths. These are the main notes that vary between JI and ET (fretless strings tune only to 5ths or 4ths, which are essentially the same for JI and ET). Unlike keyboards and fretted instruments, we can tune those chords true JI and use the bar to move them to any root in any key. Therefore, in spite of our fixed pitch open strings, we are not confined to ET, but can have "sweet" movable JI chords. But when we change the root to different strings and create complicated copedants with lots of pedals and knees, there can be conflicts that require compromise. Different people deal with those conflicts in different ways. That's why there are so many different opinions about tuning a pedal steel guitar.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

According to my Peterson V-Sam manual, the SE9 and SC6 presets are attributed to the Newman chart but they also credit Buddy Emmons and others. So obviously they took into account the falliblity of the Newman chart as being the gospel of tuning. I can only speak for myself, but with the Peterson tuner I have never been so in tune - not only with myself, but with other instruments as well. I assumed when getting the tuner that I'd have to program my own presets. But after giving the Peterson presets a chance, I am pleasantly surprised that they eliminate the beats on 95% of the guitar - on both necks. Someone did their homework on this. They didn't simply enter the Newman chart. I think they did some serious research into all the variables before they offered these presets on the V-Sam. How else could these presets nail almost every beat? I think that if a certain pedal steel is that far off another, then there must be serious mechanical or structural issues at hand.

The reason that I bought the V-Sam was to eliminate remembering and studying the cents on my meter tuner when I was on stage in the heat of the moment. Now I can quickly reference the preset in a live situation. While I'm sure it's not for everybody, the Peterson has solved my tuning problems for good.

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

Ernest

It doesn't matter what tuner or system you use; if you are playing with other instruments, especially a keyboard, you must be in tune with them! If this means your a few cents off of what you tune to when you play by yourself...so be it. It's the over all sound/tuning of the band that rules.

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

I think if musicians practice out of tune, after doing so for a period of time...it begins to sound 'right' to them.

Some people have perfect pitch...God blessed them and the rest of us have to work at it...

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

If you have these great players retiuning your steel,
when the're done./
put THEIR tuning into your Peterson and try it.
I assume it has more than one register.

There has to be something to be learned from trying each or their tunings.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 June 2006 at 09:23 AM.]

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Having perfect pitch I think would be a curse,If you were playing with several pickers and someone was just a tad sharp or flat,that would drive you up the wall.

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

don't ever let anyone mess with your tuning
i once had a a fellow forumite come by to play my Zum afer he got thru retuning it i had to call Bruce at Zum to get it back right

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Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 27 June 2006 at 09:32 AM.]

Joe Smith · From: Charlotte, NC, USA

First of all, I don't mind anybody playing my steel. There are however two things that I don't like. One is: Don't use my picks. The other is: Don't tune my guitar. It's in tune to my ear. If it's not in tune to your ear, and you just can't play it the way it's tuned then don't play it.

Andy Sandoval · From: Bakersfield, California, USA

I haven't been playin pedal steel very long but learned to tune by ear early on, a habit from my earlier guitar playin days. I tune my E's first then everything else by ear. I think it would be interesting to use a good tuner after my tuning method just to see where my tuning wound up. At one time I considered buying a good tuner but really don't see a big need for it right now.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I used Jeffs presets for years but only as a starting point to get me close. The rest I tuned by ear and it works well in situations where you just can't hear well enough to tune. When I first started using his presets, I don't think he was compensating for cabinet drop. Tuning by ear with chimes is working more for me these days but it could change.

David Doggett · Posted 27 Jun 2006 1:27 pm

Um...let me clarify my position. A slight tweaking of my open strings by another steeler is okay. I can easily tweak them back the way I like them. But I wouldn't let anyone retune my pedal and knee stops - especially not Buddy Emmons or Eric West, 'cause they say they tune ET. Experimenting once with tuning all my stops ET and then having to tune them all back to JI was a waste of several good hours I wish I could get back.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Amen, Brother Doggett

I'm not sure that's what Ernie was talking about, however, now that I re-read his post

I wouldn't have much objection as long as the tuning wrench were not in the picture either.

I think most steel players have a process once they sit down to any guitar. Check out where critical levers are. Is it Emmons or Day? Does it sound in tune? (if not tune the open strings to sound as good as possible pedals up and down)

I reiterate: I feel that anyone who messes with your tuning without asking is being rude -- especially if that involves tuning string pulls.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Yeah, Larry, that's what I was talking about.

Especially if they started dicking with my pedals and levers.

I remember years ago when I was called in to play Paul Hirshmann's Sierra that he bought from Larry Behm for a set.

Rather than mess with it, I went home and got mine. No Sweat.

I've always looked at "home" tuning as a pretty much ear thing, so WTF...

My Lab isn't real keen about people touching stuff that he's already marked anyhow..

EJL

Pete Young · From: Quebec, Canada

I think to go up and tune someone steel in very insulting to the guy. Makes it look like he plays out of tune. If you find it bad call him to come listen to it and tune it if he wants. If you find its still bad then tell him you don't feel right at the guitar and back away from playing. I would never tune someones steel unless they asked me to We are all differnt and the way we hit pedals and the pressure we place on the bar can change tuning

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

This has been very interesting, I did not mean to say anyone was rude or out of place to tune the instrument, and I do not think you thought that, the ones that did it I have the most respect for thier playing and are much better than I am at playing.
To start with I have a very serious hearing problem, I need hearing aids for both ears, I have them but they drive me crazy. I hear some sounds and they sound like something else, Nan has trouble because the TV has to be turned up so loud for me to understand what is said. If a person is looking at me and speaks plain I have no trouble, if you speak a broken type speach you are not talking to me, if you are looking the other way I cannot understand what you said.

Having said this you know by now playing is very dificult for me it takes much concentration to get it half right.
steel guitar brethren you will not offend me tunning or retuning my guitar, these things you now know why I ,must use a tuner to get it as close as I can, anytime you can help me with my playing I will not be offended. I need all the help IO can get.
so many people are offended when you try to help them, I will accept all the help you can give me.
There has been so much talk about tuning and no one seems to know the correct answer
is why I posted this to start with, tjhere has been some very fine things said about this post and most have been right to the point, and very good advice given.
I very much love this brotherhood and it would be hard for you to offend me, I love you'all to much and not ashamed to say it.

as ever ernie

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well EC, you're not going to get the "right" answer here.

As close as you'll come is finding out why people tune or detune differently.

You'll find out that Mr Emmons and many others tune exactly to a fixed twelve note system as commonly represented by good electronic tuner.

I've tuned that way as long as I can remember, and way before I knew he did.

You already have the late Mr Newmann's chart, and presumably have a precise enough tuner to tune to it, though not everybody does.

You might not get an accurate idea of how many are on which "side", because a lot of people here are tired of arguing about it.

Since you say that it's you're being hearing impaired, and that hearing aids complicate this, I can only suggest that you choose a fixed way of tuning that you can have confidence in.

BTW, Lloyd Green had an "auditory breakdown" as he explained it to me, and for a long time he felt he couldn't trust what he heard. It didn't stop him, and luckily for all of us he worked real hard and came back to play THE TOP recordings coming out if Nashville.

Lloyd tunes his E's to a little round chrome pitchpipe that's older than me, and the rest by ear, and then he plays it.

Good luck.

If you want much more than that, you'll be inviting a bunch of these guys to start insulting each other, reminding us how important they are, and looking pretty small thereby. Some of us have less far to fall I guess.

After deciding a tuning method you trust, the bulk of your effort can go into playing.

And the computer of course..

EJL

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

I started first on piano back in the stone age.Went to fiddle and later steel.I always tuned to A-440 as that was the accepted concert pitch back then.When playing steel or fiddle when there was a piano player in the band i always ask him to give me an A chord,not one note.Then tuned the rest by ear.After the dinasours died out and the electronic tuners came out i tuned first at home to A-440 and the rest by ear,then went back to the tuner to see what i had came up with.
As i had read at the time,an electronic tuner is to quickly retune to a tuning you had decided on your own was an in tune sound.
Made sense to me,but what do i know?

BTW.Having perfect pitch ear is a curse while workig with a band.One just has to adjust to it.

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

dinasours, that is when I started, I bought a tuning fork a 440 I think, mabe we can add helpfull info instead of the other, it is interesting to hear the different ways we come up with the same answer.

ernie

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