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Topic: question on studio dates...tuning issues.. |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 5:20 am |
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I have been doing a LOT of studio work lately.
I really like it and take any I can get of course.
Anyway about 6 weeks ago I did a session, had worked with the people before, they loved what I put down, no problems..
Now a few days ago, I get an email, wanting me to come back, citing "tuning issues on both sides" with my parts and those of a violin player I also know and have worked with before.
There was no mention of this at all when they were playing my parts back with the song before the fiddle or anything else was added.
I ALWAYS mention to anyone who wants my steel on their record to add it as close to the finished product as possible, as it seems to keep things more in tune.. I always see more problems when things are added AFTER the steel.
I generally don't have major pitch issues on my studio work, judging by listening to the many recordings I've made over many years.
That being said, I have also played on certain records that were HORRIBLY out of tune and I would be terribly embarrased to have any of you hear it.
Going back to the recording dates on these "pitchy" songs, I remember listening back to my parts in the studio, VERY happy with my playing, tone,tuning etc,but after the final mix, when all instruments and vocals were "blended"... YUCK...
I guess my question is two fold.. Is this MY problem?... Can I really sound fine in the studio playback and out of tune in the final mix??...
Secondly, do I charge my full fee when I go and re record these parts... This time the violin player will be there in the studio with me.. both to resolve our out of "tuneness"... any thoughts from guys that have been there?? ... bob |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 6:04 am
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Been there . . . done that
If you recorded your part with a keyboard or guitar known to be in tune your ears took over and I have no doubt your part is in tune.
If not, well . . .
When I recorded my last instrumental CD I used several groups I was working with at the time -- one group for country, one for jazz, one for rock, and one for pop. It was difficult to get everyone in the studio so we tracked stuff as we could arrange it. For the jazz tunes, I was only able to get the upright bass player and drummer to come in so I figured I'd just record it with me and the two of them. On playback it sounded ok -- the steel part was intended as a scratch track -- but sometimes those first takes are keepers so I had some hopes. To make a long story . . . well . . . less long, when we tracked the keys over the top of it the steel was HIDEOUSLY out of tune. Bass was fine -- he has a masters in double bass and tuba -- but even he agreed that the three part stuff sounded ok.
Non-fretted instruments can be really tricky to keep in tune without a solid pitch source IN YOUR SAME FREQUENCY RANGE in your ear.
Bottom line: sounds like the fiddle player has pitch issues (as many fiddle players do).
There are two cures. The best is to have the fiddle player come back in and put the rh gtr or keys strong in his cans and encourage him to listen carefully and stay on pitch. The other cure is for you to come in and fudge it just enough to make the fiddle player not sound so bad. I don't like that option. If this is 'for hire' work, I'd charge them for a retake.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 9:13 am
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| Bob:Sometimes things start sounding different to me after listening to the tracks repeatedly for a while.I have asked an engineer to let me fix my part weeks after I recorded it.As for who is right that's a hard one to figure out sometimes.I have a friend up here who owns an Alesis keyboard that always boots up very sharp,and he has told me that it's a digital keyboard and is always in tune.I proved it to him at a gig when I plugged him into two different tuners and he was about 8 cents sharp.As for getting paid it would depend on how many songs they want you to fix?I tell clients if the hear something they want fixed that I would come back at no charge,but I usually do 2 song sessions,and I'm just fixing a few spots,If they want you to do everything over maybe 1/2 price would be fair?I'm sure you can work it out,and try to be nice about so you can keep woking for these folks,Stu |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 10:41 am
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| I like things to be a little bit out of tune. Sounds more human. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 10:44 am
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Yeah Stu..I guess I will cut the guy a break, but it IS 40 miles each way, so I will have to get at least half my rate.. I guess I am troubled by the fact that there were NO issues for 6 weeks, and THEN there were problems with combining the steel and fiddle much later during mixdown...
geez how do they get the fiddle and steel so in tune on "big time" recordings as far back as I can remember... I guess we'll give it another go, but I have my doubts about this for some reason... bob |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 12:10 pm
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| Bob:I'm sure that you will work it out.Yes 40 miles is a long drive,and gas aint cheep,so they should know that they will have to give you something.I play with a fiddle player a lot and it's hard to get both of us in tune all of the time,It's a compromise.The first thing that I check for is the Bass guitar being in tune,and intonated...that seems to be what I play off of.Good luck,and give it your best shot,and don't beat yourself up over this,tomorrow's another day,Stu |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 12:16 pm
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| Bob:One more thing,I have listened to a lot of "Big Time"recordings that I thought were in tine back in the day,but now that my ear is better I hear all sorts of famous steel parts that aren't in tune in spots,but still the coolest stuff I've ever heard.I would mention them be name but everyone would want to come to Alaska and clobber me,and I don't have that much floor space. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 1:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...how do they get the fiddle and steel so in tune on "big time" recordings |
If it's chord stuff, they cut it and leave it alone!  (Single-note stuff is "fixed" all the time.)
Off hand, I'd say everything probably was pretty good the day you did the session. Then later, they "added" some stuff that wasn't there originally, or did some "tweaking" with the vocal tracks (like w/an Antares) and bingo...big beats! A tonal center that was pretty decent once upon a time can be destroyed by additional tracks or "tweaking".
I think that if they agreed that it was okay back then, and they paid you, your responsibility is complete. It's up to you how much you charge for a re-cut. (Only you know how bad you need the money and future work.)
P.S. I'd certainly want to hear the mix-down first! You may not be able to improve on what's already there, regardless of who is now "out". |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 4:12 pm
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Bob,the answer is simple.In the old days and recordings the musicians all tuned to each other.This was before it took computers or what ever they are called to keep the singer on key.
In other words one had to have an ear for music back then.In all bands i ever worked in we all tuned to the piano.Some of those pianos were so far off 440 but we were all in tune to each other.
I have worked in bands where the piano was so flat when we played in A for an examople the piano player played in B flat or B.
Back in the early 70s i played fiddle on a session in Ca.and the piano and voices were added Later and we had not tuned to the piano.We had tuned to an A-440 tuning fork.
I was embarrassed when the record came out.End of story.Tracy
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 4:25 pm
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Don't believe my comments posted.Hope this is not a double post.
Bob,the answer is simple.Before computers or what ever to keep singers on key the musicians tuned to the piano if onw was used.If no piano,usually a 4-40 tuning fork was used and the steel player or guitar player tuned to it and the rest of the musicians tuned to him/or her.
So they all tuned to each other.
I am with b0b on this.Recordings sounded so much better back in those days,like listing to a live band not a bunch of phoney electronic sounds.Tracy |
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Ron Meecey
From:
Pacific Mo. USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2006 6:14 pm
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| Bob, It would seem to me that one could listen to the track in the studio without the steel, and know immediately if the fiddle is in tune with the other band instruments. You could do the same with the steel without the fiddle. |
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