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Topic: Am I crazy or are a lot of players out of tune? |
Malcolm Leonard
From:
Rhode Island, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 4:36 am |
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Maybe I am just a crazy old guy who needs to see a doctor about a hearing problem,but a fairly good percentage of the steel music(especially pedal) that I hear on TV,CD's,etc seems to be a bit out of tune,especially when the player is reaching for a really high note or suddenly sliding back down from the statosphere,note wise.
I don't hear this nearly as much on standard guitar lead work(but *do* hear it a lot on fiddle work,by the way) and I think it relates to the string stretching that takes place on pedal steel.
I very much love steel guitar music...it really touches my soul....so please don't take my remarks as a critisizm of the players or the instrument.
Malcolm |
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Steve Hitsman
From:
Waterloo, IL
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 4:59 am
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| I think it probably has more to do with tempered tuning vs. "straight up" tha string stretching. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 4:59 am
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I suppose it's what the guys with the "money ears" want them to play.
Leastwise, that's what I've been told..
EJL |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 5:14 am
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Steve, I notice that you take a diplomatic approach to tempering vs. straight up without expressing a preference.
A wise choice, and I suspect that's the issue, and Eric probably has the best clue as to who determines that.
As if a producer's money ears could tell which from which. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 7:11 am
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How does Ron Elliott tune?
He sounded perferctly in tune to me during his set at the Convention yesterday on Steel Radio. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 7:49 am
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| As Duke Ellington almost said, "If it sounds bad, it IS bad." |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 8:29 am
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I also have heard players not hit the note right on when playing at times. I think we all are guilty of that at times.
Even the Greats have done it.. It is the nature of the beast, especially on the fast tunes. It is still a most versatile and fascinating instrument.....al 
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 9:53 am
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| As Duke Ellington almost said, "If it sounds bad, it IS bad." |
Yes, and the logical inverse of this statement, "If it sounds good, it IS good.", is also just as true, even if the passage isn't according to somebody's idea of what perfect western-scale intonation should be.
Of course, all of this is purely a matter of taste. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 9:54 am
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| I don't think this has anything to do with ET or JI. I think Malcolm is just describing the difference in sound between fretless steels and fiddles on the one hand, and fixed pitch fretted guitars and keyboards on the other hand. Fretless instruments simply do not hit every note perfectly. Also, intentionally hitting notes slightly off and resolving the tension by moving onto the note and adding vibrato is part of the characteristic sound and appeal of fretless stringed instruments, horns and vocalists. Experienced players can use this for expression. Of course novices just play out of tune a lot. It can be a long steep learning curve. After many years, I think I'm somewhere toward the middle of it. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 03 September 2005 at 10:57 AM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 12:20 pm
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I hear the same things you do, Malcolm, there's some pretty famous players whose intonation just grates on my psyche. On the other hand, the vast majority of pros have got it down pat. They've developed the talent to make notes and chords so perfect they make you want to shed a tear, beautiful and pure stuff that's simply amazing.
There are exceptions as to when it's okay to be a tad off. These include the fast stuff, some slant chords, and certain slow expressive passages. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 12:40 pm
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Maybe you have perfect pitch. That has a tendancy to make a lot of things sound out of tune.
I don't have perfect pitch, but I go through spells where nearly every singer I hear sounds out of tune. Then sometimes for a while everything sounds perfectly tuned. Maybe there are atmosheric pressures on my inner ear that affect my sense of pitch. Or maybe I'm just nuts when it comes to intonation. I really don't know.
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 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 1:19 pm
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| The only thing that all of the Forum's past JI vs ET debates have proven to me is that hearing is a highly subjective thing. We all percieve pitch a little differently, which is probably a good thing. |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 3:46 pm
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| This tuning debacle will never be solved.I tried every tuning I could find by some of the best players in the business.None of the ones I tried were the same.If these guys can't agree, what's left? Just pick what sounds the best to you ,and let the good times roll.I found what works for me so I use it.A few months ago a post caused a lot of insults and name calling back and forth,WHY? Just do it your way ,and don't worry about the other guy is doing.He doesn't play your guitar,and you dont play his,so what's the problem? |
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Tom Jordan
From:
Wichita, KS
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 4:00 pm
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It's music and expression...enjoy it. We have a tendency to disect everything and for some reason expect everything to be perfect or instantaneous. We are real, imperfect and expressive. That to me, is what makes live music real music.
Tom Jordan[This message was edited by Tom Jordan on 03 September 2005 at 05:01 PM.] |
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Rick McDuffie
From:
Benson, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 4:46 pm
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| It's part of the sound... like the squeak in John Bonham's kick pedal. [This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 03 September 2005 at 05:46 PM.] |
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David Mullis
From:
Rock Hill, SC
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 5:18 pm
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| Rick, I thought I was the only person that noticed that, that and the tone of his snare, has a nice ring where so many other drummers from that time had their stuff muffled to death. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 8:57 pm
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Since it's a generally accepted fact that nothing or no one is perfect, IMHO; everyone plays out of tune, however; some are more noticeable than others, for various reasons! Thus the need for lots of practice and hopefully a good ear! The old adage ‘practice makes perfect’ is not true either, but; it certainly helps a lot for anyone!
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2005 11:46 pm
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b0b.I think what you are hearing is perfectly normal.I have mentioned this before but will again.
From articles i read over 30 years ago and before the quartz tuners came out.This was from the classicial musicians world talking about the human ear being very fickle.At times you may be in tune but it sounds out to you.Other times you can be out of tune and yet it
sounds in tune to you.This was back when A was the accepted concert pitch.So again,i believe what you are hearing is normal and you have a better ear than you give your self credit for.This is very normal with people who also have perfect pitch.Tracy |
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Dave Horch
From:
Frederick, Maryland, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 2:02 am
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Of course, none of us have *ever* played slightly out of tune... Anytime, anywhere.
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'95 Mullen D-10 w/ E66 (E9) & Mullen (C6) pups - It's still one smooooth puppy!
'04 Artisan S-6 - "The Home Depot scrap pile refugee". - Photo page: http://www.davidhorch.com/music
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Johnny Cunnyngham
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 2:03 am
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| Guys, have I had a personal battle with this topic. Prior to playing the steel, I enjoyed the profession of piano tuning. There were no digital piano's forty years ago. My ears are extra sensitive to hearing beats and I developed an almost "perfect" ear. It is still difficult to hear an instrument that is not quite there. But the solution is to learn to enjoy the moment. All instruments have limitations and sound is somewhat personal. Concert pianists insist on a slight fluctuation between octaves. This prevents what is known as "flat" tuning. The steel has a slight distinction between the first and higher frets as a Conn strobotuner will indicate. After all, the strings are stretching more than any other instrument. But for me, I am captivated at the sound of the steel and am amazed at all the wonderful players associated with the Forum. So, sit back and enjoy the wonderful music. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 4:11 am
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Johnny,
I think there are several of us on this forum. Tuning has never gotten in the way of my enjoyment of playing; they're kind of two different modes.
I agree with you completely:
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| But the solution is to learn to enjoy the moment... So, sit back and enjoy the wonderful music. |
Me, I'm never out of tune. Everybody else is! |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 8:29 am
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I did a session with my sister's band once, in a well-equipped home studio. Everyone loved the part, including me. Months later when the finished CD came out, my part sounded unbearably flat. I was quite embarassed by it.
I never did figure out how I was able to play so flat and not notice it at the time. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 10:06 am
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| b0b... That happened to me too.. actually it was one of the clips I sent in to the Forum... For years I was proud of it, a pretty hot E9 solo,.. now all of a sudden I cringe when I hear it!.. Flat as the proverbial pancake, and I wonder where my ear was for all these years... It was recorded in 1992,and NOW 13 years later I am noticing its out of tune??? .. very strange...bob |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 10:26 am
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| Bob I'm not what you would call a pro studio guy.A friend has a fairly decent studio and always puts out a good product.He will call me if someone wants a steel,dobro,or lapsteel on their project.I had the same problem sometimes sounding flat.I play C'6th most of the time,unless someone demands I play the 9th neck.A few times it sounded so flat to me,I would ask to take it out the mix,and add a guitar or fiddle to that part.A mistake on the bandstand is immediately gone forever,a mistake in the final mix of a recording will last forever.[I'm sure a lot of players would'nt agree with me]when I record now I tune every thing dead on 440'It seem to me I'm more in tune with the other instruements.NO one else may think this is right but it seems to work for me.' |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 1:41 pm
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| * [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 05 April 2006 at 04:40 AM.] |
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