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Topic: Garcia again. Why do I bother? |
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 9:06 am |
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Once again, over on one of the guitar boards, the debate about jerry garcia continues to rage, with deadheads swearing that he is a great steel player.
I try to tell them about players like Buddy and Lloyd, and since most of them are rock and rollers. Paul Franklin and Dire Straits. and they just don't get it. As far as they are concerned, TYC is the penultimate steel guitar redcording and Garcia's ride the greatest steel guitar solo ever recorded.
And I'm an (unmentionable body part) for suggesting otherwise.
ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!
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Dave Burr
From:
League City, TX
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 9:12 am
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Mike, Before you finish arguing with them, you should post this link to Rebel, Ricky and Jeff's Intro's and T/A's: http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html
Note some examples for them to check out. At least it will give them a chance to hear first hand your side of the story. If they still argue with you after listening to some of the examples, we can only assume that they are in fact bloody idiots! 
Respectfully,
Dave Burr |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 9:20 am
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At least they know Jerry was playing a Pedal Steel and that he was a fine promoter of the Instrument.
not everyone does this..
t
uh oh... |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 9:37 am
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who cares what they think?
they probably don't agree with you on all guitar issues either.
Guys like Garcia, Cage, and Rusty Young are probably responsible for turning more people in the 35-55 age group on to pedal steel than Buddy anyway. Who's better than whom is just a p*ssing contest anyway, IMHO. I'll just bet that Emmons doesn't really care what they think either. His work speaks for itself. If some guitar floggers can't tell the diff, that's THEIR PROBLEM. (once again, IMHO)
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 18 July 2005 at 10:38 AM.] |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 10:36 am
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Mike, If you want to convince then that Jerry was a bad steel player, have them listen to the re-release of Workingmans Dead, with the "extra live cuts".
There is a version of Dire Wolf with Bob Wier singing it and Jerry playing steel.
That might catch their ear.
Of course, I think it was the first day he got his steel.
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 10:42 am
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| How many of them could even tell you if they tuned their guitars to JI or ET anyway? |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 10:42 am
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Some people just won't change their minds no matter how you rub their noses in the truth.
Wonder though, I heard someone say the Jerry himself said he quit playing steel because he just wasn't good on it.... maybe you can find that quote and show them.... on the other hand, they might just think he was incredibly modest too. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 11:19 am
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But then, if I weren't very good, I'd be modest about it too.
As I am.
Now, I'm not saying he wasn't... oh forget it. aargh! |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 11:35 am
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Geeez .. Sorry Mike my friend,I guess I gotta be poor old Jerry's advocate again.. 
[ btw Mike, stay off that darn guitar board would ya?.. Its been a coon's age since I posted there.. lots of nasty kids there!]
I personally loved Jerry's VERY simple playing. Always musical..
TYC is one of the sweetest sounding pedal steel pieces ever as far as the rock world is concerned IMHO... Does this make JG a great steel guitarist??.. of course not..
As Jim said, He KNEW he wasn't that great. However, Jerry made nice sounding music with the modest ability he DID possess on the steel..
I don't think anyone could have done a better job on THAT particular song, with the meager experience he had, than Jerry.
Jerry KNEW he wasn't a great or even good steel player, but he was a VERY gifted musician/writer, he made GOOD use of the talent he possesed, and I think he outdid himself on at least one song on that old ZB. TYC of course.
We all know if he had to depend on JUST his steel playing,Jerry did NOT have much chance. bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 18 July 2005 at 12:43 PM.] |
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Cody Campbell
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 12:10 pm
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Pete B., was it Jerry on the Studio cut of dire wolf, too?? That was some of the first steel I heard on any of MY music, (not my parents'). I loved it. I'd always heard steel but never loved it like I do now. Soon after hearing that Dead record, I discovered GP and the FBBs. After then, IT WAS ON!!! [From age 10 to 20, it was metal/punk, then 60's/70's rock, and jazz. Then old country!
(I'm not TOO much of a dead listener, but do enjoy some of their studio work.)
I'm sure it wasn't jerry.[This message was edited by Cody Campbell on 18 July 2005 at 01:10 PM.] [This message was edited by Cody Campbell on 18 July 2005 at 01:27 PM.] [This message was edited by Cody Campbell on 18 July 2005 at 01:28 PM.] |
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Russ Young
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 12:12 pm
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Mike, do you know the definition of "insanity?"
It is trying to do the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results every time.
Although you cannot inject new ideas into closed minds, I suspect that some of the less-vocal forum readers will be curious enough to listen to Emmons, Franklin, Young (Rusty, that is!), Cage, et al. You might even turn some of them on to Robert Randolph ... |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 12:56 pm
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Russ, you're absolutely right. These kids are totally clueless, and there is no way they will ever change.
The fact is that Garcia did do a nice job on TYC, and he did turn a lot of people on the the steel.
But these kids rank him above people like Buddy and Lloyd. And I'm a bad guy for mentioning them.
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 1:10 pm
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Mike, just say, "if you like Jerry's steel playing, here are some other players you might enjoy" and give them the names of your top choices. Chances are, once they check out your suggestions they'll realize you were right about "your guys" being great pickers. Then they can make up their own minds about who's best. If they don't agree with you then, who cares. At least you will have given them options to hear other steel players.
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
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Don Discher
From:
Sault Ste Marie,Ontario,Canada
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 1:18 pm
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| We play TYC every gig we do and the people love it,I just wish I could get the sound JG had. If Rod Stewart sat behind a pedal steel whether he played it or not some kids would think he was the best as well.Hey if kids are even noticing that there is such a thing as pedal steel,that's a good thing, no matter who's playing it. |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 1:23 pm
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| What makes a good steel player? Speed? Complexity? Versatility? Technique does not make the musician. IMHO, a 'good' steel player is anyone who can make music with the instrument, Garcia included. The steel guitar stuff on 'Teach Your Children' sounds good to me (albeit a little too 'country' for my liking). |
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Gregg Thacker
From:
Pasadena, Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 1:50 pm
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Mike, Your comments about Jerry Garcia are interesting about the fact the kids now a days thing that Jerry Garcia is above Buddy Emmons or Lloyd Green. What "little" do they know (think they know everything and then some HA!)
Now don't get me wrong, as I think that Jerry Garcia was a good Steel player. I was surprised when I found out that he was the Steeler on "TYC". As a matter of fact, I play the licks that Jerry played and even tabbed out the ending lick and it is posted on the Steel Guitar Tab Website.
I think (INMO) that all they ever listened to (or listen to today)is Rock and Roll. Had they listened to or listen to Classic Country (50's, 60's, 70's) then I think that they might think otherwise. We Steelers know who the greats are.
Gregg
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If it don't have a Steel, it ain't real!
[This message was edited by Gregg Thacker on 18 July 2005 at 02:57 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 1:50 pm
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I know what you mean Mike. I used to visit those guitar forums, but gave up when I learned their world revolves around Hendrix, Clapton, or Stevie Ray Vaughn, none of whom I can really appreciate.
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| But these kids rank him above people like Buddy and Lloyd. |
They're kids, Mike, give 'em a break! Their musical world is very small, as probably was ours at that age. I can remember back when kids were saying that Scotty Moore was the best guitar player, Jerry Lee Lewis was the best piano player, and Speedy West was the best steeler!
There are, to me, two ways of judging artists...by style, and by flat-out knowledge and ability. Some have both, but it's quite rare in the grand scheme of things. If someone likes a particular artist's style, you can't reason with them that they're no good. Style is style, and talent is talent, but a good style will outsell a good talent most any day. Why? Because style is what the general population knows, remembers, and relates to, while talent is what artists and critics relate to.
Frankly, we artists and critics are most always outnumbered.
C'est la vie.
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Larry Weaver
From:
Asheville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 1:54 pm
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Mike:
Fortunately for the planet, all the kids aren't cluesless.
I'm actually finding a remarkable amount of interest in my neck of the woods that has been generated lately by Rober Randolph and the like. One of our local NPR radio stations has been playing RR for quite a while now. BUT, over the last 6 months, this station has started to play QUITE a bit of PSG jazz. I can tell you my day starts in a terrific fashion when I'm riding to work and I hear a cut from Buddy's Minors Aloud cd on the radio, or some of the others they've been featuring lately.
But I digress.
The thing I belive a lot of people tend to forget about the Dead and the whole jam band scene, is that it is more of a culture than most can understand. These people worship Jerry and band. Not going to be any converts there. But, I'm one of those people that believes that ANY exposure for this great instrument of ours is welcome, and a lot of these folks are starting to learn what a PSG is.
Me personally, I've always liked the Dead, but never thought Jerry was much of a player. But that TYC solo....that and a few Rusty Young bits got me started down this fretless road.
-Larry
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Mark Lind-Hanson
From:
Menlo Park, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 1:57 pm
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I can't believe this topic is AGAIN in front of us. Haven't we loved it to death already?
I for one being a person who grew up nearby to Jerry and incredibly loyal as I might be (as on a friend to friend level, despite fandom)- recognize he was NOT "the greatest" pedal steel player "ever- and he'd be the first to admit it to be true. Maybe these kids are confusing his greatness as a musician with his varying levels of talent on other instruments- he was also a more than adequate banjo picker. But it bugs me to see people trying to keep riding him down about his steel playing- you have to take it in context. I never got to hear him live with the New Riders (he sat out their set at the first show I saw) but I loved him o their albums and of course, Cage was in a whole other league when he joined them- but I still love "I Used to BE A King" by Graham NAsh, and it has to be admitted that, just like TYC, Garcia happens to "make" that song what it IS>...
Why DOES Mike Perlowin dsepise JG so? It wouldn't ...be ...Jealousy... would it? Is it possible you very well might be a better player than JG yourself, but disdain the regard he got for the little he did? I've run into tons of guitar players with almost as much talent as Jer who cursed him for his success, sour grapes- every one of them.
I think it's time to lay the topic to rest
& I thought we already had!
(here we go again, # 12 & 35) |
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David Wren
From:
Placerville, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 2:00 pm
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Don't let it get to you Mike, do like I do... I just say "Yeah, I think Jerry Garcia played steel as good as he sang.." Most just nod their heads and say "Right on Dude!"... anyway, these are the same folks that either call it a "slide" guitar, or a steel pedal. (:>)>=[
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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Webb Kline
From:
Orangeville, PA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 2:18 pm
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JG was master of the less-is-more theory IMHO. Yeah, sometimes less was less with him as well. But, there is a lot to be learned about effectively playing less that can be gleaned from Dead songs.
TYC did more to popularize the PSG than everything outside of country music combined. The song has a good message to it, too. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 2:18 pm
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A Modest Theory:
Most steel players are initially attracted to it by it's generally sweet, pretty tone. Therefore, most steel players are the type of people who will generally play undistorted, somewhat major key, generally pretty music, most of the time. A very, very few people like Cage, Garcia, Kleinow & Young managed to sneak a teensy little bit of steel playing into rock before the rules of what is correct and incorrect in rock became locked into stone, about 1978, 1979?
However, not enough steel music made it under the bar to reach the critical mass necessary for steel to remain cool and be seen as conforming to the Rock Rules of Nonconformity - the rules about how to rebel in the correct fashion.
Currently, the percentage of steel players playing somewhat sweet, generally pretty music is still way too high for the tiny few who are playing dirty, rebellious, nasty, suicide-inducing & parent-piss-offing steel guitar music to overthrow the Rock Rules of Nonconformity. Which were locked into stone about, say, 1978? 1979?
When, IF, the Robert Randolph clones ever start to outnumber the Buddy Emmons clones, steel guitar will reach what is referred to as a tipping point, at which point steel guitar will then be seen as conforming to the Rock Rules of Nonconformity. Which were locked into stone about, oh, say, 1978? 1979?
(Besides, Mike, what are you doing reading guitar boards?!? Shouldn't you be making us another wack-a-doodly CD?) |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 2:26 pm
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| Mike, Send those guys a copy of Firebird Suite. Then ask them to praise Garcia again. The only thing I can say for Garcia is that he played mostly in tune which is more than i can say for Toy Caldwell. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 18 Jul 2005 2:27 pm
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| Quote: |
| Why DOES Mike Perlowin dsepise JG so? |
I don't despise Jerry Garcia. I despise the fact that these kids think he is the worlds greatest steel player while ignoring our instrument's true virtuosos.
I despise the comments like "Well if this Lloyd Green guy is so good, why didn't CSN&Y use him?"
I actually admire Garcia very much for both his actual guitar playing and for his exploration of America's musical heritage. I think overall he did the world a service.
But when people rank him above Buddy Emmons, I feel I must say something. |
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