Frustration with Instruction

Bill McCloskey · Posted 22 May 2005 11:25 am

One of my pet peeves is spending hard earned money for instructional information that is so poorly presented and thought out that it makes learning more difficult and frustrating.

For instance, I have just been watching an instructional video for C6 and the teacher is so inarticulate that I wonder if he even thought about what he was going to teach before they flicked the video camera on. There are so many hums and pauses and ahh's that I defy anyone to sit through the whole thing.

I have another video where the person plays through one of the examples out of tune and at the end says "Oh, I was a little out of tune there." and retunes. Why couldn't they have backed the tape up and reshot?

For all the complaints about people copying instructional material, for once I'd like to see someone put the thought and care into their instructional material so that it is well thought out, free of hems and haws, and truly worthy of the money it costs.

Savell · From: Slocomb, AL

Bill,

I like it when they just sit and try to think of the next song to play or better yet leave the room. I wasn't sure if I should leave also or stay and wait. Even though all efforts to help another is truely appreciated, not everybody knows how and few are good at it. It takes patience and discipline to do the prep work for making one of these videos. Then it's important to get a professional camera man for sure or lat least get someone that can edit it to make it look professional. One has to have a heart to teach, otherwise it comes off as just trying to make a buck. Every bad intructional product that gets bought just creates a resistance to buy the next. What we really need is a lot of theory and the little techniques that can be implemented in various chord progressions. That way the newly learned student can try to fly on his own with his own ideas. In real life situations we hear way too many things to try and cover them with memorized licks. This way our basic skills are continuosly building. We must remember though that there are some real winners out there. Even the bad ones have things that we can learn from.

Savell

[This message was edited by Savell on 25 May 2005 at 10:39 AM.]

Ron Frederiksen · From: Van Buren, Arkansas, USA

What Bill said,.. And I might add AMEN... Ron

"steelin is music to my ear"

[This message was edited by Ron Frederiksen on 22 May 2005 at 03:10 PM.]

Charles Curtis · Posted 22 May 2005 3:41 pm

I've had the same problem, ergo, my penchant for tablature. I can make do if I have the music and the tab without all the instruction of which string etc. I like the interview videos of Jay Dee Maness demo of the music with the tab. In fact I wish Buddy Emmons would do a couple because an interview format puts me a little closer to the artist and frankly I've only heard him speak a couple of times; after all I think that he is the man that got so much going.

Alan Kirk · From: Scotia, CA, USA

Bill,

Teaching is just like anything else: a few people are good at it, and most people aren't.

My pet peeve is the tapes put out by Homespun. They get top artists to make instructional videos/DVDs, but a lot of times those artists are the lousiest teachers on the planet. They don't know how to explain what they're doing, and they get impatient and play too fast. That's not teaching.

It takes time to learn how to teach anything. Just because someone can play an instrument in no way guarantees they can teach someone else.

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David Yannuzzi · From: Pomona , New York, USA

Bill,
What Allan said is true..

I had some teachers(not many) who were great player but couldn't relay what they were doing to others. It was painful.
They don't know how to break things down to explain them to you. They just know how to do it..They have been doing it for years and maybe don't remember how they got there...
A good techer has great patience and a method of teaching ..not just great licks and humm..ahh.. hmm hmm great licks.-Dave

[This message was edited by David Yannuzzi on 24 May 2005 at 10:37 AM.]

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Bill et al,
I agree. My pet peeve is tab without the timing written out, or lines to divide measures. So easy and simple, but so much commercial tab doesn't even include that. When I start writing my books, it'll be done right!

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Nate LaPointe · From: Los Angeles, California, USA

I actually did one of these DVD's for Cherry Lane Publishing, a subsidary of Hal Leonard. It's called "GRATEFUL DEAD SIGNATURE LICKS" It was very hard to teach a camera. When I am working one on one with a student, I have a good idea of what they know and how they learn, but to be generic is diffiicult. But I am that type A personality that is a perfectionist, so nothing slid by in my DVD. If anyone wants to check it out, go to Hal Leonard's website http://www.halleonard.com/item_detail.jsp?itemid=2500551&location=SoftwareVideo&catcode=7&refer=new&order=6&filter=2w

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www.natelapointe.net

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Bill, if it's the same C6 DVD that I'm thinking of, it seems that it was primarily done for the reason of....what's the cheapest, quickest way of making a vid and how many can I unload?

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

I agree with what folks are saying. I've been involved in producing training on video for many years and I'm disapointed with just about everything I see out there. Teaching to a camera takes a unique kind of discipline. Proficiency on an instrument just gets you in the door, then you need great instructional design, relaxation on camera, strong, appropriate graphics and direction with the student in mind at all times. When John McGann, myself and our partner set out to do a DVD we spent a lot of time on the fundamentals and watched a lot of tape to make sure what NOT to do. We wanted to make a DVD that was much higher in quality than 99% of what we saw. I hope it shows in the final product. John Hughey's DVD with multiple camera angles is another program that was very well thought out and executed. Danny Gatton's first instructional video was one of the worst I've ever seen. The director went into pointless, on-screen switcher effects just at the key moment when Gatton took off on his trademark boogie woogie riffs. The viewer who bought the tape to see Danny in action instead got some jerk showing you every effect a low-end video switcher could produce. I believe I actually threw something at the screen when I first saw it circa 1990.

Steve Howard · From: High Ridge, Missouri, USA

yep, I am pretty much done with that crap. Bought Johnny Hiland's chicken picken 1 for guitar to get some ideas from a great player who all I've heard was that he is a great teacher. So, I get a 5 page tab book with four solos and Johnny on CD saying "Now put your ring finger on the 7th fret and slide it up to the 9th". What the??? I can read the tab, tell me about how you construct this type of solo and what chord positions you are thinking about...etc.

I've been playing steel for 5 months and other than learning how to pick block from Don Curtis' book and how to do harmonics and palm blocking from another, every lick and every nuance I have picked up so far has come from learning by ear from songs I learn. Then I just try to learn how to apply those to other keys and situations. Better than any instructional material I've ever spent money on.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

This goes way past steel instruction. Teaching is much more than knowing the technical aspects of what is being taught. The issue is whether or not the learner can effectively learn and retain knowledge from the instruction. By that standard, an awful lot of teaching in most any field is not effective, IMO. I say this as a college teacher who tries to teach college students technical things about system design and mathematics.

Good teaching requires a closed feedback loop. First, teacher prepares and presents ideas about some topic. A student then needs to practice applying the idea, and then the teacher needs to figure out if the student is actually learning correctly. If not, then corrections need to be made, further feedback gathered, until finally correct learning is achieved. This is tougher without the student there, as in distance learning like a video. This points out the need to test-teach and make corrections to any such product. This is not the way it's generally done - of course that would require much more time.

Often (but not always), brilliant technical minds do not have patience with someone who does not grasp things as quickly as they think they themselves do. Of course, these folks have often forgotten what they had to go through themselves to figure things out.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

Get rid of all the other eh... stuff, and get anything from Jeff Newman or Buddy Emmons. 'nough said.

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Nic du Toit
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Jim Park · From: Carson City, Nv

You guys crack me up!!! (this post by the way, isnt meant to belittle anyone) When I learning to play in the early 80's I was taking lessons, but all I had as a learning tool was a cassette tape player and the music Nashville was producing on cassette tapes and records, plus some tab I had gotten. I wore every tape out that I had and 2 tape players learning to play what I heard. Plus I drove many miles to see other players and meet them and steal licks, from greats such as Wayne Hobbs, John Ely, and even Big E himself, and other local players. my point is "Figure it out"! Listen to what you hear and learn to play it!learn basic music theory and apply it. Take a simple lick and learn to play it 3 different ways and backwards. Anyway, I applaude you guys for sticking with a tough instrument, and keep up the good work!!

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

I've learned a ton from the Jeff Newman materials. Not only a great player, he was also a great teacher. He didn't just show you licks, he taught some theory and gave you an understanding of how his materials can be used in a variety of songs.

Having played music for over 40 years, I've digested a lot of theory, but its painfully obvious when teaching my new students, that I can't assume that they see what may be obvious to me. I have to break things down--keys, chord changes, scales and what fits with what. It can be tedious, but its really important if you want your student to take flight on his own eventually.

Any instruction based purely on memorization just creates a parrot who can play perfect phrases but who has no clue how to apply what's been memorized to music in general.

When I study from most instructional material, I look at the key and focus on one lick at a time. Once I get the lick, I find other songs and musical situations where I can use that lick. Then I move on to another one. Slowly, all this stuff integrates. Sometimes I still miss the obvious application.

One may be a great player, but he doesn't really understand teaching until he stares into the face of a total beginner. Then, you have to throw away all your fancy, hard won skill and find a way to break down the most simple things into terms that your student can grasp and apply. With new students, its not about flashy licks--its about building a true foundation based on skills and theory that the student can apply to any musical situation. Its harder than it seems on the surface.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Being a great technician is not the same as being a great teacher.
But YOU are looking for tecnique,
If it IS there on the tape, you can get it out.

Many teachers are not all that good one on one, but you CAN get the technique tools you need from them.

How many have had a steel lesson with some one and he went umm a few times, had pauses, re-collected his thoughts,
played you something and then returned.

The best steel teacher I ever had, and a MAJOR name, did each of these things at least once.
But I will spend years integrating all the things he was telling me.

Even today not every one has the large resources to do a great video project.
For every Jeff Newman and Joe Wright really doing it up right, there are many super players with something to pass on, but..
These guys are they ones we see fronting on the
music videos, but the solid journey men making the recordings and concerts sound good.
]
Heck they don't even edit those vids either.
Still we can get LOTS of stuff even from a dirt basic production.

Even if it would be lovely if production values and continuity of content was higher.

I have seen clips of Joe Wrights DVD's and he seems to have it down pretty darned good these days.
But he has learned also how to run a 3 camera video system and edit, so he is an exception on many levels.

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

A steel maintenance video by a legendary player comes to mind (it makes you want to see more, if you catch my drift).

At one point, he leaves the room to pick up something he forgot, camera running - and not just a second or two. Quite amusing, really, and most of the content is valuable info, so no hard feelings!

But still - editing has been around for like a hundred years or so by now. You'd think it would catch on even in non-metric parts of the world

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´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ´76 Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Peavey Nashville 1000

Alan Shank · From: Woodland, CA, USA

" My pet peeve is tab without the timing written out, or lines to divide measures. So easy and simple, but so much commercial tab doesn't even include that. When I start writing my books, it'll be done right!"

Neither Jeff Newman's nor Herb Steiner's tab has rhythmic notation, but you get that from listening to the cassette/CD. Jeff stressed that you have to listen to the music and get it in your head first. Jeff's videos/DVDs are all quite professionally done.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Bill, if I'm not mistaken you're not looking for technique or theory, having been a resonator guitar player and musician for a long time?

The tab from Buddy Emmons Swinging series of CD's has a lot of C6th stuff on it. Could it be that this might be helpful? It's available in the forum catalog or on Ernie Renn's site www.buddyemmons.com

I think the CD's have a lot of the kind of music you've said you're interested in - big band swing, western swing classics, plus some country shuffle. I know you have a universal and I think you're looking for the C6th angle on it?

You hear what he plays on the CD, see it tabbed and get chord positions, improvisational patterns, etc. (and a sense of awe about his ability and knowledge of the tuning). Trying to walk in his footprints has been pretty instructive (and humbling).

BK

Bill McCloskey · Posted 25 May 2005 10:50 am

Thnks all for all your responses. Besides the bad production values of many instructional material, it is funny to me what constitutes "content" as well. Sometimes it just seems like filler to me.

I remember getting one instructional video where the guy spent 5 minutes or so just playing the open strings. He'd play the open strings with his thumb to show you the tuning, and then he did it again, and again, and again.

I almost fell off my chair. In this way about 6 miutes of instruction was padded out to about 40 minutes. Grrr.

Anyway, this has been cathartic. Thanks all.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

As my old friend Alan pointed out, my tab doesn't have much rhythmic notation, though it does have bar measures and dashes to show where "empty" beats exist.

My understanding is that tab is basically to show the player where to play what he's listening to. I assume that if a player is adept at reading rhythmic symbols, dotted notes, etc., he's probably a pretty good reader of standard notation as well... which the vast majority of steel guitarists are not.

I've known Alan Shank since the mid-60's and can tell you he's a very educated musician and excellent reader, incidentally.

I know that Buddy's tab has dots below the staff lines to show where the beats are, but that's about the extent of the rhythmic notation I've seen on most tablature that isn't accompanied by standard musical notes on a stave above the tab.

Neil Flanz's tab is very similar to mine.

Scotty's tab has no rhythmic instruction, but there is standard notation above his tab if it's in his Mel Bay series.

Chuck Lettes' tab is like Scotty's... standard notation above the tab will tell you the rhythm if you're a reader of music.

Jimmie Crawford's Musymtab likewise has no rhythmic notation. As noted above, neither does Jeff Newman's. Also Jim Loessberg's tab and Doug Jernigan's tab omit the rhythmic notation.

Basically, we write this stuff knowing and assuming that the majority of our constituents use it to figure out what they're listening to, as I said earlier.

A contributing factor to this is that tablature is not nearly as standardized as is musical notation, and there's no commonly accepted computer program to create tab for steel guitar. Each creator "does his own thing" for all intents and purposes. And that's a reflection of the creator's own limitations in writing rhythmic feel down to paper.

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HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

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