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Topic: ALL steel guitars sound the same!!! |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2005 7:21 pm |
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Ha!! got your attention right???.. Now of course we all now that that is a moronic and assinine statement.HOWEVER don't forget, I AM a moron... and an ass.
The reason for this post is some "best tone " posts on the forum lately.. "Emmons have THAT sound" "Sho Buds are what a steel guitar should sound like" Franklin, Derby Zum,Mullen.. you NAME it.
The last day or so I have been going over many of my old studio dates.. some good, plenty of them pretty bad.. but you know what they had in common?? .. The steels all sounded very similar..Some on a plywood 3 pickup MSA, Some on a ProIII, some on a Carter W/ Truetone. I was thinking how even the best ears on this forum[and there are GREAT ears here!!]would NEVER be able to tell those steels apart.
I SO BADLY wanted to have a little fun with you guys, send a few short clips for you to hear, and bet NO one would guess which steel was which. I hope to find a way to do it and even offer a goofy little prize to whoever guesses correctly. I may see if it can be done somehow, and may ask help from some of my friends here. I only thought about this while going over these old cuts... The ONLY thing these very different steels had in common were the copedent and the player.. different amps,studios and producers... I still say that tone is in the hands...
I agree 100% with the guys here that are good enough to record thier own CD's using several different steels,and NO ONE being able to tell which one was used for which cut.. ok I'm off my soap box, but this really got slammed into my big fat head over the last day or so, and I had to let it out.... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 14 March 2005 at 07:22 PM.] [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 14 March 2005 at 07:24 PM.] |
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 14 Mar 2005 10:51 pm
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Maybe the difference is hard to hear as a listener, but when playing different steels you can hear and feel the difference between them.
That difference may be too subtle to project offstage but it can be enough to inspire the player, or bore him. It can definitely make a difference in his/her playing.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 14 March 2005 at 11:26 PM.] |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 2:28 am
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| Quote: |
| ALL steel guitars sound the same!!! |
Maybe not to you, in your head at least, but to the average listener, come on? If you made a tape of a classical violin, Ashlee Simpson, a shrieking electric guitar, a freight train, a tenor sax, a pre-orgasmic tomcat, a b@njo, a church bell and five different steel guitars all playing the same note, how many "normal" people would tell you that the steel guitars sound different from each other? (After you played them the tape, of course....) We get into some pretty heavy esoterica here you know. The players and/or manufacturers are at least partly to blame too. Once everybody decided that Emmons-tone circa 1971 was the irrefutable Voice of God and Carter, Zum, Peavey and everybody else started trying to make all their products sound as close as possible to that, we probably lost some choices - look at how many electronic "amp models" and "guitar models" six-stringers are now offered, and I can't even have a gol-durn tone knob. One of the reasons I like to listen to Mike Perlowin, Dave Easley, the Vanduras and others is that they're not so hidebound by that monkey-see-monkey-do attitude. Of course, I listen to classical violins, tenor saxes, and shrieking electric guitars too, spring's just around the corner so the cats will be starting up in the courtyard and I'm still waiting for Ashlee Simpson to find her voice as an artiste. The b@njos I'll leave to b0b, I just read somewhere that church bells characteristically emphasize a major-6th harmonic (!) so I'm off to the Lexicon harmonizer to torment the kitten. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 2:38 am
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Hey Bob,
Been there and done that.
Go to my website
http://home.comcast.net/~mtulbert
Under Sound bytes you will find a clip called name that steel.
I played that turnaround on three different steels and montaged it into one clip.
There is a Franklin, Zum and Mullen on that clip.
Many tried and no one got it correct.
Try again.
Mark |
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Richard Gonzales
From:
Davidson, NC USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 2:57 am
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Would it be possible that some guitars might sound best if you can select a different amp setting? You say run all guitars through the same amp and the same setting, maybe what is good for one guitar might not be as good for another guitar.
Any thoughts on this? |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 4:28 am
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| Hook.. Not really..Too many voices in my head...How do you think I come up with all this crap??? Its the voices telling me what to write! bob [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 15 March 2005 at 05:20 AM.] |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 4:42 am
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HookMoore.com
Allen Moore
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Tony Harris
From:
England
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 5:22 am
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| A couple of years ago I recorded an album at home using a few lap steels - a Fender Champ, a borrowed Fender Stringmaster, a Selmer and a Wyseaki (custom-built here in England). Listening back now I can hardly hear the difference. Not because they all sound the same - they don't! - but because I was tweaking the sound of each one towards "the best" sound I could get. Starting from different points, I was aiming at the same 'target'! |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 5:54 am
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I have always felt that one of the limitations of the pedal steel is that all pedal steels tend to sound alike....not that it's a bad sound, mind you, but after a three-hour set people would rather not hear you anymore!
It's the same with any instrument....three hours of trumpet.....three hours of harp.....three hours of clarinet.
6-string guitars have an inherent advantage over pedal steels, with adustable tone knobs, multiple pickups, pickup volume controls, etc. Plus, a Stratocaster will sound much different than a Les Paul which will sound much different from a Ric 330 which will sound much different from a Gretsch 6120 etc.
Just seems odd that there aren't such big swings in pedal steel guitar "sound" between brands as there is with the 6-string guitar counterparts.
But, then again, only a small minority would even think about buying a steel that strays from the tone "norm," so what incentive has there been for steel manufacturers to make a guitar that is not going to be accepted by most of the market?
I tend to use my Vox modeling amp to play with my sound.....distortion, chorus, delay, overdrive....lots of interesting ways to make the steel not sound so much like a steel!
Joe |
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Ken Thompson
From:
Great Falls, Montana, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 7:22 am
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I have to respectfully disagree Joe. I think it is all in the ear of the beholder. We opened for Sawyer Brown last night. They did an awesome job and I was able to stand just off stage with the lead guitar amps on the floor. I saw different guitars used, different tones used and it all pretty much sounded the same to me. LOUD! Seriously, I see lead players switch guitars for different songs let alone change settings and effects and I very seldom notice much difference. Our lead player is fascinated by turning knobs and hitting pedals all night long and we constantly tell him to set it, play it, and leave it alone.
Just my 2 cents. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 8:03 am
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consider this scenario,, A country "tele picker" somehow forgets to put his telecaster in the car.
He gets to the gig 65 miles from home,notices his guitar is not there, frantically calls home and his wife reassures him,"yeah you big dummy,the guitar is on the front porch where you left it"..Anyway, the guys only recourse is to use the other guitarist's back up guitar which is a Gibson SG w/ humbuckers.
The FIRST thing that guitarist will do,is dial that SG to as close to "his sound" as he can get it.. He tweaks the amp,the SG has new strings, he plays the gig and he sounds great.. No one in his band could tell any difference... all is well..
Across town at the local hard rock club, the young heavy rocker dude,is tuning his Gibson Les Paul in front of his Marshall stack. He turns quick to check out some hot chick,and his LP strap comes off the strap button,and his guitar crashes to the floor snapping the head stock off. The "guitar dude" is sick.. BUT he knows the show must go on.. His only backup is a $129 Squire Strat that he never uses... its his trashy beater,but right now its all he's got.. what does he do??/ turns to his Marshall,his array of floor pedal toys and starts dialing in his heavy metal tone..
A few hours later after the screeming mosh pit maniacs have gone home, its all hi fives from his band mates about how great he played, how he sounded exactly like he always does, how the band was gonna get his LP fixed up etc.. He STILL had the tone in his head hands and heart even though the tool used was not the same...
I think all good musicians have a good sound in thier head,hands and heart, and will reproduce that same sound in thier music despite the nameplate on the instrument... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 15 March 2005 at 08:14 AM.] |
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Dave Van Allen
From:
Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 8:11 am
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Ken,, to back up what you say.. I have recently watched two seperate videos of my band,in two different places, made 8 months apart.
On one tape I used a 1961 Gibson SG/LP and a 1965 Showman, on the other I had a $109 Chinese tele copy and a 68 Showman... There was no discernable difference.. certainly not enough to even comment on... Both times it sounded like me... mediocre!!... I sold the 61 SG /65 Showman and kept the $109 Tele!! bob |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 8:23 am
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Before I get any flames, of COURSE different steels will have different tonal qualities as will different guitars. The point I'm trying to make here is that most times, the player will do what it takes to make WHATEVER he is using sound like HIM. .
I used mostly MSA and Sho Bud steels over the years. If I kept all adjustments/eq/volume/effects the same for both guitar brands, at low volumes you could hear some tonal variation..once I dialed in what I felt was the "right" tonal settings however, The Msa's sounded like the Buds' and vice versa.. not enough variation to quibble about....anyway, thats my take on it... I could be wrong.. have been before... lots of times.... bob |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 8:26 am
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I have to go with Jim Phelps on this one. I've had a number of different Steels and they're all inspiring in different ways. Right now I have one that plays like a dream (mechanically speaking), very tight, smooth, doesn't break strings, rock solid tuning stability, and looks fantastic. It has great single coil tone, but there are hum problems in some venues, and the tone and sustain die out noticeably after the 13th fret or so. My other guitar is older and a bit clunkier to play, the tuners are going south, It's not as good looking and "stylish" and although humbucker loaded the tone is sweeter, with more sustain and clarity and much better tone high on the neck. Guess which one is more inspiring to play, and guess which one will still be here after the next financial crunch?
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 9:00 am
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Bob's post here makes me recall the "Mixerman Diaries", and how the engineer went through ten different snare drums to find one with the "right" sound.
For Pete's sake! It's a friggin' snare drum! How many listeners will be able to tell one from the other after everything else is mixed in? One out of a thousand? One out of ten thousand?
And...that tiny fraction is probably not interested in buying the stupid CD, anyway!
Yes, in our strive for our own personal perfection, we obsess over that which is really quite insignificant (the equipment), and downplay what's really important...the musician and his talent!
Often, I'll see someone ask a pro "What guitar, effects, and settings, did you use on so-and-so?"
Well, I hate to be the one to tell you, friend, but if you sat in on the exact same equipment, you probably wouldn't sound anything like the pro did! He's a pro. THAT'S where the sound came from.
My own advice?
Stop worrying so much about "the sound", and just play the damn thing! Until your ability or style puts you in the top 25 players, you have much more important things to worry about than your "sound".  |
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 9:18 am
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I find myself, again, in total agreement with Donnie H. And Bob C. thanks for the "cojones" to bring the subject up in the manner you did, with a positive statement that is.
Betcha' can't tell the difference in some guitars if the signal path is properly adjusted. I'm speaking of everything from the pickup to the output of the amplifier. Probably if the truth ever surfaces and can be proven, the amplifier settings will have a hell of a lot more effect on the final sound than any other element in the path. Rationale; it has a hell of a lot more adjustable elements in it.
Tone in the hands? Surely that's so, but if the same player plays different intruments through the same signal path, and makes the adjustments he likes, I would wager the average player or spectator couldn't tell the difference if the instrument itself is hidden. Just my $.02 worth. I would certainly like to see it attempted and the "tone experts" tested. 
fred
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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 9:35 am
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quote:
quote:
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26. Although they come in different styles and colors, electric guitars all sound the same. Why do you keep changing them between songs? -Cub Koda, 36 NEW RULES FOR BANDS IN THE 21st CENTURY
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Sorry....I don't buy that. There is no way...NO WAY....to make a Fender Stratocaster sound like a Gretsch Country Gentleman. When I play along with Beatles or Monkees songs, the Fender, no matter what settings I use on my Vox, Fender and Peavey amps, can't come close to any of the tone that Harrison had on those songs. Plug in a hollowbody electric guitar, and that's another story.
I may have let the quote slide if it said "all hollowbody electrics sound the same" or "all solidbody electrics sound the same." But to say that ALL electrics sound the same just isn't true.
Joe
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 9:45 am
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| True enough Joe. However. if you put flatwound 12's on that Fender like Harrison used, it would be closer..especially if it was played at stage volume through a cranked AC 30 .. bob |
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Walter Hamlin
From:
Talladega, Alabama, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 9:51 am
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| I still say that most people cannot tell the difference in steels if you use the same amp, settings, and gadgets on all of them. Just like strings (another subject)there is not a dimes worth of difference in them. Now, to the pickers, yes, I do believe they can tell a difference. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 9:54 am
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I'm just wondering why if it's true that anything can be adjusted to sound the same, why isn't everyone playing old '70's MSA's? They can be had for around $800-$1500 in great shape... I guess everyone's buying $4000-$6000 steels just because they're lighter and prettier... or that triple raise and lower changer is worth 3000-4000 more bucks....!
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Ted Solesky
From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 10:32 am
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| 2 great steel builders told me the same thing. Most of them 'there' steels out there are very good. Sit down and try em all and the one that fits your approach and attack is the one to get. Just like your Ford or Chevy. A Ford suits one guy whereas Chevy suits another guy better. And as far as tone, I've been told this over and over, 'it's in the hands'. Mr. Jimmy Day (when he was with Willie) told me that he got up from a guitar and didn't touch anything on the amp, and Mr. Buddy Emmons sat down behind the guitar and got a different tone.? |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 15 Mar 2005 10:52 am
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| This is one of those kinds of threads that just really cracks me up. |
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