A Big Pet Peeve-Singing With Tracks

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

I play at church on a regular basis and from time to time go play out somewhere. Now we are not professional musicians but we can play and sing without any timing problems and sounds pretty good. One of my biggest pet peeves is to be sitting behind my steel and someone come up to sing and throw a tape in the deck when you have capable musicians that can play the songs. You just sit there and look like a dummy while everyone in the audience is staring at you. Nothing chaps my backside anymore than someone pull that on a band that can play. I would bet I am not the only one that feels this way.

JAMES BANKS · From: Mineola,TX USA

Paul, I know the feeling. Our church has a great band. In most cases, humming a little bit of the song is all it takes. One particular night a couple of guys wanted to go over Go Rest High on That Mountain with their sound trax. The pianist made a comment,like, you don't think we can play that song. Give me a key and it is yours. We did it and even thru in a guitar turnaround. Those guys were surprised. Nothing more boring than sitting there behind a steel or holding a guitar while some one sings a song with trax you know you can play. Chaps me too
James

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

If you want to send them a loud and clear message, just play over their trax then ask them which one they want go with.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE INSULTS ME, I HAVE A DUTY TO RETURN THE INSULT..THAT BEING THE CASE, I ENDEVOR TO MESS THEM UP,,PLAY ALONG IN DIFFERENT KEY, ABOUT ONE HALF TONE , SHARP OR FLAT, KEEP GIVING THEM DIRTY LOOKS, COMPLAIN TO THE PREACHER, THE PREACHERS WIFE, THEN TELL THEM IF THEY CAN NOT BE COUTERIOUS TO YOU , KISS ME GOOD BYE..THERE IS NO REASON FOR A MUSICIAN TO PUT UP WITH SUCH CRAP AS A KARAOKIE SINGER, WHEN AN ADAQUATE BAND IS PRESENT.. I QUIT THE CHURCH I WAS GOING TO FOR THAT VERY SAME REASON,,TOO MUCH HOGG CALLING,SINGERS.....
THANKS FELLOWS, I WILL NOT LWT SOMEONE MAKE A FOOL OF ME IF I CAN PREVENT IT,,, STAND YOUR GROUND OR GET OUT.. THOSE PEOPLE WILL MISS YOU MORE THAN YOU WILL MISS THEM... THE GOOD LORD WILL NOT HOLD IT AGAINST YOU FOR BEING HONEST.....LOVE TO ALL...
JENNINGS

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

January 2004 we had a fellowship meeting. The minister for that night was Mike Wilson, who is a fabulous piano player and has written some fantastic songs. He also travelled with the McGruders, a Southern Gospel group. At the church service another minister was going to sing with the track and they could not get the player to work. Mike Wilson spoke up and asked what song he was going to sing to which the man replied,"I Can't Even Walk Without You Holding My Hand". That song hit number one on the gospel charts a few years ago so it was nothing we had never heard before. Mike Wilson said we know that song so he took off playing it. The minister went ahead and started singing but I do not believe he liked it very well. I just thought he was a litle arrogant and he even got to sing a little extra because when the tapes stops, that is it. With live music you can keep going. I rest my case.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I don't care for canned music, in church or anywhere else! I learned to play guitar in church 40+years ago, and got pretty good at playing by the seat of my pants(I can play by ear, too, but the other draws more attention).
But I would do nothing to distract someone singing in church to a track--After all, there's something a little bigger than a church musician's bruised ego working, here.
And Jennings, I know God will forgive, but I know better than to tempt Him, either!

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I'm not crazy about it either, but I have to admit that I've paid for many trips to the grocery store by backing up singers with tracks. This one guy I know in Palm Springs gets unbelievably great money gigs and often he'll have to hire a cetain number of bodies onstage just to get the contract. Even when we have some of the best players in So. Cal. onstage, he'll still insist on using his dumb tracks. The amazing thing is that this guy is actually a pretty musical guy, but it's kinda like "I bought this stuff, so I'm gonna use it." etc. ad naseum. And of course the worse part is that most of the audiences don't know the difference. Ugh.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 04 January 2005 at 04:31 PM.]

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

What REALLY chaps my donkey side is the groups that make a big deal of their great "singing" skills when it's ALL canned to start with.

I had to deal with a "Christian acappella quartet" (real legends in their own minds, these guys) in an outdoor festival setting last year who insisted on setting up their own system in the middle of the crowd during another act's set, even though we had one of the best rigs on the coast already doing the show.

Supposedly their "bass singer has the lowest singing voice in the entire world" and they were concerned that the subs weren't big enough to handle it. Turns out that he can't sing any lower than the rest of us - they just have a sub-harmonic synthesizer set up in their little Yamaha digital console, drop his voice a couple of octaves with it and make a big deal (about a third of their set!) out of his "super low voice." These guys even had a bunch of their other "vocal" parts pre-recorded and either lip-synched or sang along with their own harmonys in playback.

Telling lies in the name of the Lord - and a bunch of arrogant little snots to boot, not exactly "Christian" in their actions. Made me want to pull the plug, but I'll leave that up to the big Sponsor in the Sky, I'm sure He'll soon have enough of their noise.

I guess I'd better stop this rant while I'm still ahead....

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Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 04 January 2005 at 04:46 PM.]

Bill Beall · From: Branson, MO. USA

Brother Paul, I don't think there's a song written that Mike Wilson can't play if you give him the first three bars and even if you are struggling he'll make you sound good. It would REALLY have been funny if the singer had been gonna sing "Mention my Name When you Pray". Mike wrote that one.

Like you, I don't like to see people come out with trax and insist on using them when there is a perfectly capable group right there

[This message was edited by Bill Beall on 04 January 2005 at 05:57 PM.]

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I play in a pretty good praise band at our church, as some of you guys that have our live CD's can attest, and we can handle about any song that we're asked to play. But, we still have a few singers who like to use tracks. In some cases the singers have CD projects and want the songs to sound just like the recording. It is very hard for our band to get together for rehersals, so I can understand where they are coming from. Some songs have odd chord patterns or odd timing and no matter how good a musician is, you can't do it perfect the first time. I or none of our musicians would do anything to detract from the singer using a track. We just politely sit back and listen. After all, it ain't about us anyway, its all about HIM, and if the songs glorify HIM, thats what we are there for.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Reggie Duncan · From: Mississippi

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

The insult is easily returned...as the track singer is leaving the stage, play and sing the song that he had just finished. Might break him from sucking eggs?
DD

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I'm with brother Darvin on this one.

The gospel situations I play in, admittedly, are with an excellent live band, some of whom are in George Strait's band. But I don't have a problem with using tracks in church and I think the musicians that do have a problem with it are really missing the point.

To sabotage a singer who uses tracks, especially in church, is unconscionable IMHO. If a singer is insecure and wants to use tracks, or has a huge ego and wants to use tracks, that's his burden. I don't feel me getting offended and having a battle of the egos will do anything except alienate the singer, embarrass the preacher, and make for a poor performance for the congregation. And that would be all MY doing, now wouldn't it?

I think playing for church services is about serving the congregation and inspiring the listeners with praise for HIM, not praise for me.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 04 January 2005 at 08:35 PM.]

Jack Shults · From: Canadian, Oklahoma U.S.A.

Paul,

I know what you mean about the tracks, but consider that some people have seldom to never sung with live musicians and probably couldn't stay with them. Sort of like the singing you mentioned last week. It seems that if someone tries to sing with live musicians and something goes wrong, it is always blamed on the musicians instead of the singer.

What really bothers me is when I go to a "professional" concert and pay big bucks to hear someone perform; I expect to hear a live band. These guys are presented as being the best in the business and, to me, the best means live musicians.

If I want to hear them sing with tracks, I'll buy thier CD.

I play live music, but sometimes use backup tracks (like Herb Steiners) (PLUG PLUG), but I'm not a professional and if anybody ever pays to hear me sing and play, it never gets to me.

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Jack Shults
MSA U-12
Evans Amps
Stereo Steel

[This message was edited by Jack Shults on 04 January 2005 at 08:49 PM.]

[This message was edited by Jack Shults on 04 January 2005 at 08:50 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I am with Darvin and Herb on this ; The audience comes first.
Give them the best show, sabotaging the singer acomplishes nothing more than giving the audience a bad show.

As for tracks, I prefer real players of course,
for 2 reasons.

1) Much of the time the music is easily playable by the band live with a decent chart,
and often without

2) Many times the tracks are just crap...
some nimord with a midi system, bad monitors and a rudimentary knowlege of arranging putting an average to poor acoustic track on and thinking it's "ART".

I can see using a profesionaly recorded track from your album, that has that extra something special, minus what your playing and singing live as a solo,
if the production values are very high,
or there is like 10 backing voices, a real string section,
and a by purely luck, just passing through town digerido master who riffed on the turnaround etc.

Or the charts are REALLY quite hard, and unique.
I have stuff I expect NO ONE to be able to play right off the bat, not even myself, so playing to a track would make sense.

And woes be them what sabotages me on those tracks. I'll call you on it.
Ok dude, here's the chart play this....silence.

But this is the exception, most things are easily played,
and the band should get a shot to try it before the service or show.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 January 2005 at 03:19 AM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Aren't there variable-speed tape decks? A little "surprise" modulation might be just the test of faith Jesus had in mind....

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

At the Virginia Country Music Association's monthly Jamborees we have a live band for the first two hours and then a jam session which is also live for the last hour. They used to have some folks who's come to sing at the jam and bring tracks. After I became a board member, myself and a lady vocalist on the board brought forth a motion that we wouldn't allow that anymore for some of the same reasons mentioned before and it passed. So now if we get someone who wants to sing with tracks they just have to go to their local Karaoke bar, not with us!! JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

in all fairness and respect..

I too did 6 years in a full Pentcostal band on Fender J-Bass and sometimes on Guitar.

The band was not bad, very capable as well.
We backed up the choir, played all the services and backed up those that requested the band for the "Specials"..

but..
when someone is invited to do a special keep this in mind..it is "THEIR" opportunity to sing praises. If they choose to use the Church Band then good..but if they choose to use a tape then thats their choice.

Maybe they don't feel comfortable working with what they feel are "Professional" musicians..maybe they don't have the time to rehearse with the band..to many maybe's..maybe they are very comfortable in the "sing it exactly like the tape" setting.
Perhaps if the band does not play it exactly like the tape they will be in trouble..

Just 'cause they can sing does not mean they can count.."know what I mean Verne" ??

Keep in mind that most of the folks that come up and do specials sing maybe 5 or 6 times a year..they may or may not have ever performed in front of an audience much less sang with a band.

In our Church it was the Music Minister that made the call..not the band. She knew..and she really did..It was her responsibility that if a Special was going to be performed in front of 700 people it better not be a bust..She knew..boy did she know...

Also, the Church band I was part of were very intimidated by me, knowing that I had played music for the better part of 30 years or more in clubs and such..that initself created internal baggage. And they were in the band !

Perhaps approaching the singer with the tape and asking if they had an interest to do a song with the band would be a better approach..maybe they will the next time...offer to rehearse with them. But once you go down that road be prepared to chart and arrange the whole deal..for everyone..

My wife , who sang on the Bandstands with me and well before me many times sang with tapes at Church with the main reason being rehearsal time and charts..Sometimes she was asked on Sunday AM to do a Special Sunday PM..she always had 1 or 2 ready to go..

I too sat there and listened and enjoyed the singers, tapes or not..I put the Bass on the stand and participated in the "Listening"...

If your sitting beind the Steel during a Taped peformance may I suggest you get up and sit on the side . Many times our entire Church Band ( 8 of us ) got up and sat down off to the side during a taped performance..no big deal..

All things may not be what they seem..

be kind and gentle

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 January 2005 at 04:24 AM.]

Reggie Duncan · From: Mississippi

Many good responses to this touchy issue.
Lots of the churches in my area are smaller.
Some of them don't even have a pianist, much less a full band.

As a teen, I swapped up with another bass player, playing every other week. He eventually went to the pastor and told him that if he wasn't allowed to be the fulltime bassist, he was leaving. The pastor helped him load his equipment! Music in the church shouldn't have this dark side! This man's attitude troubled be and I wondered if maybe all I went to church for was to play? So, I eventually turned the bass playing over to someone else capable and sung in the choir for a while.

Another observation:

At a steel guitar show there was a nationally known player, who had used backup tracks in the past, that used the live band.
A good one too! But, they started a song 3 or 4 times then gave up.

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

There have been some good responses to this topic. Let us go outside of the churches into the Opry's and country music shows. Do any of you guys that play those venues see the same thing even if it is occasionally? I personally do not do anything to hinder someone who sings with tracks nor do I ever say anything to them personally. In fact, I have never voiced my opinion to the leadership. It just bothers me to see it done when there are capable musicians that can play.

Smiley Roberts · From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075

I look at it as a great time for a beer break.

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  mm   if it ain't got that twang.


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Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I'll follow up with Smiley. Live band, get off the stage if someone wants to sing a song or two with a track. I guess I look at it from the perspective of too many musicians not being able to find work these days. As a result, clubs have resorted to hiring DJs and Karaoke because it's cheaper to pay one or two singers and a full band on tracks. Take it another step and just turn on the radio and pipe it through the club. I think most church bands are donating their talent. If someone wants to sing with tracks as an inspiring donation, I'm all for it. I just don't see the logic in sidemen selling themselves out in a night club situation. If you're capable of backing a vocalist on a few songs, the singer should use the band. If the singer isn't comfortable, then it's a step up and a good learning experience. "All he or she has to fear, is fear itself!"

DD

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

Paul, it's the same way at our church. we have a piano player, a guitar player, bass , accordian

and a steel. I'd lot rather the singers let the church band play for him/her but some just like to sing with tracks. I don't have a problem with that because I know for a fact that the tracks sound a whole lot better than the church band does. My wife and I have tried to sing with tracks, and we just don't sound good. I play my 6 string and let the church band back us up. now, the bass player can purty much play anything we sing, but I can't say the same thing about the other musicians. so in all honesty, if we could sing with tracks, that's what we'd do, I'd just play my 6 string along with them. our PA system is the problem, bad PA and NO monitors.
Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, here's my take on it..

I can't see trying to "mess anyone up", because of Do unto others..., and all that stuff. I have no problem sitting out for a song, either, if they demand it. That considered, I would more likely just try to play along with the "track" and the singer (that's most of what we do anyway, isn't it?) in a very subdued manner, so as not to corrupt the performance. You know, like copy the steel work in "I Fall To Pieces", and "Crazy". (The steel is there, but it's so subtle you don't hardly notice it.) Do some light harmonics, or some soft chord padding or some grace notes out of the singer's range. Try to enhance what's going on, and not compete with it or foul it up.

Who knows, you might even help give us steelers a good reputation...we could use it!

Reggie Duncan · From: Mississippi

Donny, I can't tell you how many times I have played along with a track like that.
Even played the same lick in the same spot that was prerecorded! Padding is very useful.
Some of the "tapes" are a little out of pitch so you have to listen closely. Cds are right on most of the time.

By the way, I had a Quartet for 5 years in the 90s. I went in the studio and cut bass, drums, rhythm guitar and piano fills. I played rhythm piano live and Dad played steel guitar. We had a hybrid sound!

Out on a limb.....75% of the church bands I have heard overplay and at best are hesitant in playing a song on the spur of the moment.
The same percentage wouldn't ALL come to a practice session either!

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