SGHOF-Julian Tharpe-never nominated?!?!?

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

For several years while monitoring this fine forum, the topic of Scottys' Steel Guitar Hall of Fame and the several glaring missing greats eventually comes up, usually around the time of the convention in St. Louis. I would like to initiate a real serious discussion concerning one of these players, Julian Tharpe. I have recently been made privy to the fact that Julian Tharpes' name has never even been put into nomination for the HOF and I have also been made privy that it probably would not be of any reason to do so, because of negative personal feelings that some of the HOF board members have toward Tharpe. Seems that no matter how great a musician you are/were, your musicianship can be totally negated by the HOF Board in light of what they consider mitigating factors dealing with your personality, demeanor, integrity and whatever else they can come up with in order to sanitize the HOF in the way that they see fit. Anyone can nominate a candidate, but ONLY the HOF Board can vote on them----hmmmm?? Only Scotty can nominate a board member--hmmm. If you use deductive reasoning, then basically this Scotty fellow has total control over who is on the board and basically who does or does not get into "his" hall of fame. I say "his" because since the steel community is basically denied a vote then the HOF does not really mirror the sentiments of the overall steel players.

There are great players in the HOF. But in the case of Tharpe, I see a pretty negative side of the HOF process and everything having to do with it, which leads me to my question.

Julian Tharpe is deceased. Wouldn't it behoove the HOF folks to let bygones be bygones and basically forgive Tharpe of the things he did that ticked off the HOF board members. Do you think that the Steel Guitar Community as a whole would welcome such a gesture as a breath of fresh air into a stagnant situation that has gone on for 10 or 20 years. A dead man can't make up for his mistakes. Should he have to pay forever?

This has just bothered me for a while and I thought I would get some opinions from some of you and maybe something positive might come from this.

Anyone interested?

Charles Curtis · Posted 30 Oct 2004 4:19 am

I believe someone once said that Julian really knew how to use all fourteen strings (and however many pedals) on his guitar, second to none. I think that when it came to playing different styles, particularly jazz, he was second to none, he was fantastic. Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of meeting Julian or shaking the hand that did such mind blowing speed-picking. However I can control my own personal HOF and that is my LP and CD collection.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

If you feel that strongly about it, why don't you nominate him, Bill? Anyone can write a nomination. The instructions and criteria are all explained on the SGHOF web site.

Tim Bridges · From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

Bill, I had the unbelievable experience of hearing Julian play on many occasions. I wasn't aware of personal conflicts that Julian may have developed during his days on this planet. You're right, he was magnificent!! I introduced myself to him one night and he was a relly personable man. I didn't have a clue who Julian Tharpe was at the time regarding a guru of PSG. He was likely the #1 influence on me taking up PSG. I hate that people hold grudges, or can remedy a dispute. Especially when they're deceased. Well, I guess it really is better to resolve matters before "passing on". In any event, I would think his musical abilities as a PSG player and a pioneer in the community would be the basis of the induction process. I guess he really rubbed a few folks; but, so have I. We'll keep hopin'!

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

I have personal knowledge that Julian has had a letter of nomination submitted since year 2000.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Just out of curiosity, does Julian fit...or has he made contributions under all, or most, of the 7 categories mentioned at the SGHOF site? No doubt he was a great and innovative player, but did he really contribute in all the "required" areas? My only awareness of him was as a club player, and the few albums of his that I have. I'd like to hear something about his touring, backing major artists, teaching, instructional materials, promoting, conducting concerts, etc., since these are all mentioned in the nomination application form.

(This isn't a rant against Julian, but merely a fact-finding soujourn to find out other "reasons" why he might not have made it into the HOF. I'm totally unaware of his "personality conflicts", if indeed there were any.)

Fred Jack · From: Bastrop, Texas 78602

I don't know all that he toured with but Ray Price and Barbara Mandrell come to mind.He also did a lot of session work.He did some teaching.He was innovating with tunings as there were not that many 14 stringer's to copy from.Steel was his life, I don't know how much more he could have put in it.However,if you owe someone who has the ability to keep you out you might never enter in.What a blessing it is that Jesus does not carry a grudge! Fred

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Fred. Thanks for your input. I was told by one of the committee members that he had never been nominated.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

A general observation...looking back over my life, it seems that the most talented musicians that I knew were those who were also the ones with the most personal hangups or character defaults.

I've often wondered why, but it may have been because their only real focus was on their music, and everything else was either just an aside or was not important to them, and their life may not have been balanced with other things.

It's possible that every musician at some time in his (or her) journey through life, has made a decision as to whether music is more important than anything else in life, or whether it is just one important aspect of his life.

I'm making no judgements, but just thinking out loud as to why things are as they seem to be!

www.genejones.com

Fred Jack · From: Bastrop, Texas 78602

Gene, I have made that same observation.I've known a lot of excellent musicians and most of them had nothing in material things.No security no nothing.Some of us have worked regular jobs,worked long hours and we too have nothing.Go figure.I'm not complaining.We have a place to lay our head,a refrigerator,(that I can't keep food in) and all the essentials and a whole lot of nonessentials.UUUhh, Steels and steel related are classified as essential aren't they? Fred

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Gene and Fred, I agree 100%. most (not all) of the greatest musicians I know are definitely out there. Fred, how goes it with you? JimP

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Some corrections need to be made of Bill Hatcher's condemnation of what he calls "Scotty's Steel Guitar Hall of Fame".

Scotty is one member and has just one vote as a Convention Board member. He does offer a place for the Board to meet yearly. He approves the expenditures for the awards given. He donates his time to participate in benefits that raise money for the yearly expenses, which this year were the highest of all time (nearly $6,000). That is the extent of Scotty's role on the Board.

Julian Tharpe has never been "formally" nominated. That requires documentation of his accomplishments and contributions as detailed on the HOF's web site. Yes, several people have sent in his name. A name is not enough. The Board receives many names yearly. When those who provide names are referred to the HOF's web site; the referring person is asked to provide the documentation. They are rarely heard from again.

Mr. Hatcher claims that "...no matter how great a musician you are/were, your musicianship can be totally negated by the HOF Board in light of what they consider mitigating factors dealing with your personality, demeanor, integrity and whatever else they can come up with...."

That statement is inaccurate. No person's musicianship is ever negated. It lives on. His use of the word "integrity" or the absence thereof, toward fellow steel guitarists, is rightfully considered as per the HOF's web site. Could that be what Mr. Hatcher is referring to? If so, perhaps he would like to enlighten us with that information rather than alluding to it.

Mr. Hatcher states, "Only Scotty can nominate a board member--hmmm."

That is not true. The HOF's web site states that "DeWitt Scott, who submits all potential Board members to existing Board members for approval" does not mean that he is solely responsible for nominating a new potential Board member. Anyone can nominate a Board member, either if they are or are not a Board member themselves. Scotty has always provided the names of potential new Board members, names that have come from other Board members. There have been individuals who have asked to become a Board member if the Board ever expands. The whole Board decides who will become a new member, not just Scotty. Over the years there have been several other Board members besides those who are currently members.

Mr. Hatcher states, "... basically this Scotty fellow has total control over who is on the board and basically who does or does not get into "his" hall of fame."

This is patently untrue. Scotty's role is restricted to the duties and responsibilities listed in the first paragraph above. If Mr. Hatcher has to refer to Scotty as "this Scotty fellow" he doesn't know Scotty as the majority of Forum members know him.

Mr. Hatcher states, "I say "his" because since the steel community is basically denied a vote then the HOF does not really mirror the sentiments of the overall steel players."

Not true whatsoever. Members of the steel guitar community have the most powerful vote of all: providing the nomination and documentation that justifies their nominee's candidacy. Most of the recent inductees have come through nominations provided by individuals outside the membership of the Convention Board.

Mr. Hatcher states, "There are great players in the HOF. But in the case of Tharpe, I see a pretty negative side of the HOF process and everything having to do with it, which leads me to my question."

Then nominate Tharpe and provide the documentation to justify his induction as Bob Lee recommended to you in this thread. If you know of a "negative side" to Tharpe's history with his fellow steel guitarists, then disarm it.

Mr. Hatcher stated, "Julian Tharpe is deceased. Wouldn't it behoove the HOF folks to let bygones be bygones and basically forgive Tharpe of the things he did that ticked off the HOF board members."

How about providing the details of what "bygones" should become "bygones." Mr. Hatcher appears to be aware of something that would cause Tharpe to come within the "acts and omissions" consideration as listed on the HOF's web site. Why not provide it instead of alluding to it?

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 02 November 2004 at 05:40 PM.]

Franklin · Posted 2 Nov 2004 3:17 pm

Tom,

Are you still a board member?

Paul

Dyke Corson · From: Fairmount, IL USA

This is great info Tom, thanks!

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

OK Tom. You accused me of being dishonest in an email to me and I take GREAT offense in you doing so. In 53 years on this earth, no one has ever accused me of such and it's not going to start with you. Since you refused to answer the last email I sent you and in essence declared that you would not discuss this issue with me anymore then I will state my case here and let the chips fall where they may.

Scottys HOF site is where I got the info on the selection of the Board. If you go up to bObs post and click on it you will go to the site that has all the rules and such. On down into the copy is the statement that says Scotty submits ALL names. If that is not true then you call Scotty and tell him his charter on the web is wrong. I implore all to read this and tell me that this is not what this says. It does not say anything about the board submitting names to Scotty and then Scotty submiting them to the Board, it says that Scotty submits "ALL potential board members".

Also the charter has nothing to say about "formal" and "informal" nominations to the HOF. So you now come up with this two kinds of nominations to the HOF. The fact that Tharpe has never been voted on by the board is proof that he has NEVER been nominated which is what I said. I stand by my statement that Tharpe has NEVER been nominated.

Cutting to the chase, Julian Tharpe has NO chance of ever being inducted into the Scotty HOF because of what certain board members hold against him for things he did in the past. That also goes true for Reese Anderson, but this thread deals with Tharpe, so I will let you give your explanation to the entire steel community. With this attitude, I stick by my statement that no matter how great a player, you can be denied your rightful place among your peers and among some who are not your peers simply due to other circumstances that have NOTHING to do with your musicianship. Is this a HOF of musicians or of monks or other people who are perfect according to members of the board.

Tharpe is dead. There is no way he can EVER jump through the hoops that the board members demand he do, and the refusal to forgive his past discretions speaks volumes as to the character of the men who judge him in death as they judged him in life.

Tom Bradshaw--you tell the rest of the steel community what Julian Tharpe would have to do before you would vote on him being admitted to the Scotty HOF if and when his name is FORMALLY submitted for nomination.
You will have to give all the crap that is held against Tharpe, because I told the person on the Board that emailed me that I would keep our conversation confidential out of respect for him, whether or not I now think he deserves it or not. An honest person does this, not a dishonest person as you have accused me of being.

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 03 November 2004 at 12:29 AM.]

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

Even when you use terms like hoop-jumping, it's a loaded comment.
You make it sound like someone has to fulfill the board's ideal and that it's a process debasement and ritual humiliation.
Naw, no way.

Bill Hatcher, your presumptions and ignorance in regards to the processes of the HOF are almost on a level with your ability to take offence.

Dude, you go and write a submission, you research what a player has offered the community.
You offer examples of his teaching, or sessions, the albums, put them into a historical context, note the bands they worked with, if you do good you might even be able to pull out some cool quotes from people they've influenced, played with or even contemporaries.

I tell you what man, you bring some of that here, then you can do some talking.

Or, you can just get more indignant like others have before, and continue the process that keeps people from whatever recognition they deserve.

Dude, it's so simple. Don't gripe.. write.
If you can't do that, make some calls, network, and actually get the work done.
Make a proper nomination if you really want to get somewhere, not just with Julian, but anyone you think should be worth consideration.

I'm sure every year there's a bunch of useless emails that makes it to the Board, and it'll be the same old "why isn't blah-blah in here, it's a dirty shame..yadda-yadda.."

Sanitize the HOF?.. get real.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I corrected my spelling Jason.

Do a search on the Forum under "Steel Players" . Just log in "Julian Tharpe" and see what comes back. If you do not know who he is then you will have a better idea.
Don't mind your post. I just see this as a long running injustice and decided to bring it to the forum in a way that might get some answers. Seems to bring out the best and the worst in folks, and possibly the truth.

I am in a learning process here myself on this subject and the more I learn the more I understand.

Chris Forbes · From: Beltsville, MD, USA

Please forgive my ignorance, what exactly did Mr. Tharpe do that ticked "The Man" off? I've seen a whole lot of beating around the bush, can someone post here or send me an e-mail so I can get out of the dark?

Chris Forbes · From: Beltsville, MD, USA

A forum member was kind enough to e-mail me. Thank you, I shall now bow out of the picture.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

It seems to me that someone shouldn't have to submit a nomination to the board for Julian. One of them should do it!! It's as if they're oblivious to his contributions to the steel guitar world. The board should already have the facts and they shouldn't have to be submitted by a non board member. I'm really down on this infamous "board" for their outright arrogance in some of these matters. It seems like a bunch of average players making judgements on the brilliant ones. Perhaps a little jealousy going on here, eh? Have a good 'un....JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 03 November 2004 at 10:08 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I don't think that it's the board's responsibility to nominate anyone. It's their responsibility to consider and vote on the nominations, which come from the community at large.

It's my understanding that Julian Tharpe has never been nominated. While I read some strong comments in this post, apparently nobody feels strong enough about Tharpe's achievements to do the real work required to nominate him.

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other - Julian Tharpe was gone long before I even heard his name. But apparently he had a large impact on many players, some of whom are Forum members. Who among you will take up the task of writing a nomination, instead of just complaining about it?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Walter Stettner · From: Vienna, Austria

I don't like the definition of the board members as a "bunch of average players". Jeff Newman was a member of the board until his tragic accident - was he average????

Scotty, Tom Bradshaw, Winnie Winston, they all made their significant contributions to the steel guitar world. There is no need for them to be jealous of anybody who is nominated for the HOF...

Kind Regards, Walter

www.lloydgreentribute.com
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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Franklin · Posted 3 Nov 2004 2:07 pm

"Who among you will take up the task?"

I would submit, in a heart beat, a nomination for Reece and Julian if I believed it would ever see the light of day. The board can always nominate from within itself.

Bob,

Since you weren't around, I'll try to fill you in on the impact of Julian and Reece. When Scotty and Tom were unknown folks with dreams of starting steel guitar oriented buisinesses, Julian, Reece, Jernigan, Emmons, Newman, and Chalker all gave their time, support, and shared their expertise to their earliest individual endeavors. Their combined, established musical credibility, playing dinky shows for little money, allowed Tom and Scotty the vehicle to gather a reputation, along with mailing lists to sell various ideas to the growing crowds these gentlemen attracted. Both Tom and Scotty had brilliant visions of the future and I salute their contributions, but without the help and credibility of those accepted giants in the music world, listed above, one can only speculate, whether or not, either could have realised that dream.

I'll wager that Anderson and Julian probably played more of the earliest steel shows than anyone else. Why should anyone have to remind them how much Julian's and Reece's musicality had an impact on the birth of the steel show and especially on two of its board members personal buisinesses. Add to that how orginal, explorative, and the fact that they both fathered the universal tunings, played on numerous sessions, inspired players, built guitars, taught and promoted the steel as upfront as anyone in steel history has and then maybe you can understand why this BS of submitting a nomination to those who owe Julian and Reece this debt of gratitude "The SGHOF Award" is so upsetting to me and many others that do remember the earliest days of steel shows, tablature, and mail order buisinesses and the way Reece and Julian promoted for them.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 03 November 2004 at 02:14 PM.]

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Finally, a "pro player", steel guitar giant, and member of the SGHOF speaks out. Paul Franklin has just opened up Pandora's Box and said what many of us have thought and talked about for years.

Everyone who was in the Steel Guitar World during the infancy of these steel shows are more than aware of the player contributions of such as Julian, Reece, Curley, Seymour, Joaquin, and too many others to mention. Without their interest and participation, there probably would be no SGHOF, large Steel Guitar events, etc. Just a thought, but one certainly has to admit their contributions were tremendous.

Just to set the record straight, there has been more than one 'FORMAL NOMINATION' letter submitted on both Julian and Reece, and there are lots of folks that know that.

And Tom I think that if everyone knew of your email to Richard Gonzales in years past, relative to the Julian Tharpe induction, that knowledge would probably heat this situation past the combustion point.

I don't think releasing that communication in public, however, would ever facilitate Julian's induction into the Hall. And after all that's what most of the Steel Player's intentions are. I also would hesitate in release of that document publicly because of the effect it might have on the Tharpe family. It does exist though and you know it.

Nuff said from this old man, but somehow past experience leads me to believe that this will not render a "fair" ending to this situation, but after all, "fair" (according to my old man) is just a "3rd grade word" where some things are concerned.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

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