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Topic: 'love those whacky sound men (Grrr...) |
Dave Horch
From:
Frederick, Maryland, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 8:49 pm |
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Well let's see... At the outdoor (first red flag) gig tonight, the soundman put everything in the mains but the steel and the bass (you read correctly). Being the brain surgeon that he most assuredly must have been, he kept telling me (steel) and the bass player to "turn up!" . Oh sure, just ‘cause he wasn’t prepared, we need to match the mains with our stage amps? Beautiful. And so we did, as much as we could subject our fellow musicians to it!
And so on stage, that 15” BW speaker in my NV400 almost sheered my head off! I had that poor amp cranked at about 8. I never knew that 15” BW could deliver such blistering highs at such a high volume! Perhaps I might be able to hear again in a few days (kidding, but not much).
You gotta love (Grrr!!) those whacky sound men! What a piece of work!
Best, -Dave
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Mullen D-10 - It's still one smooooth puppy!
Photo page
[This message was edited by Dave Horch on 06 June 2004 at 09:55 PM.] [This message was edited by Dave Horch on 06 June 2004 at 09:56 PM.] |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 9:20 pm
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I played a gig at Opryland Hotel. The sound man had 2 mixes, one for the mains and one for the monitors. Unbeknownst to me or anyone else on stage he had my steel running thru a friggin harmonizer in the mains and dry thru the monitors. Queried about the "high vacuum factor" of my tone on break, I investigated same and deduced what was happening. I killed the guy after the gig and dumped the carcass in the Cumberland river. Grrr...
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Cal's Corral
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 9:36 pm
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As a soundman for 40+ years...
I must say this guy is just pretending to be a sound man.
If your sound man is not also a musician, he likely will not know what goes on on stage, and will blythly asume what he says is logical.
so just go with it.
No you should NOT have been expected to put up with horribly loud stage clume to compensate.
Cal I am not sure what High Vacume Factor means, but he should have given you the same signal up to a point.
A good harmonizer on steel isn't neccesarilly a bad thing.
But you should hear what your putting out too.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 June 2004 at 10:40 PM.] |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 9:38 pm
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I did a similar bar bash high volume thrash this weekend with the Nvl12, and I made it compress a LOT. I missed my Nvl400 a little bit, but the 112 held up fine.
My ears are still ringing a bit, but it sure brought out a lot of adrenaline and those high volumers are good for one's determination.
Sure a bit harder than the old living room comfort..
EJL |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 9:46 pm
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David--I think we shall equate high vacuum factor with some kind of coefficient of sucking.
And Mr. Sharp--I'm rather appalled by your cavalier attitude towards your treatment of the sound man. Don't you care about water pollution!? Why use the river when there's a perfectly good town dump nearby. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 10:08 pm
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| Yeah, I know. Homeless banjo players living under the Shelby Street bridge have to drink from that river. [This message was edited by Cal Sharp on 06 June 2004 at 11:52 PM.] |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 12:09 am
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Hey Dave.Don't complain.Before i even quit plaing week ends i had to run my LTD 400 with the 15 in.BW speakers almost wide open just to try and get some where near the volume of the drummer.I gave up on trying to get above those stinking monitors.No one in the band noticed i was playing so loud because each one had their amp in a chair up near their ears and only listened to them selves.lol.HUH???What song did you say?
HUH? |
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Chuck McGill
From:
An hour from Memphis and 2 from Nashville, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 3:41 am
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Ahh.....
Memories |
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Jeremy Steele
From:
Princeton, NJ USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 6:39 am
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| I ran a sound company for a number of years. I got out of the business for many reasons (tired of schlepping and paying to repair the heavy, expensive gear, tired of being the first one there and the last one to leave, etc.), but the main thing that drove me from a business I used to love was the constant denigration of my profession. Sound reinforcement is one of those businesses where positive feedback (no pun intended)is very rare, even when things are going great, the bands are happy, and the audience is ecstatic. Let one thing go wrong, however, and it invariably brings down an avalanche of opprobrium and invective about the "lousy sound man". I have the greatest admiration for folks who do this for a living..it truly is a thankless job (except for the good music you sometimes get to hear). [This message was edited by Jeremy Steele on 07 June 2004 at 07:40 AM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 7:34 am
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I understand fully what you're saying Jeremy, but the fact remains that without the "negative feedback" which comes in the form of criticism, there's no impetus to improve or change what's wrong. I think most people in the music business are, unjustifiably, becoming a little thin-skinned. We're all in it for different reasons, but the overall "sound" is what's important, is it not?
What amazes me is why something that came almost "naturally" 40 or 50 years ago has become so difficult today to obtain. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 7:54 am
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| Donny, could it be that there are just too darn many unecessary knobs and controls on today's mixer boards? |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 8:42 am
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Jeremy I hear you also.
I ran a sound business for decades, worked for the Hanley Brothers, and mixed anything you care to name at least once.
If you don't get feedback from the band on stage you can't tell what they need.
But if all you get is negativity, then that does nothing to improve thier sound,
or your job doing it.
I feel a sound man MUST be a musician at least in the past.
I was mixing before I played out, and after I was a player, I understood much better the dynamics, both personal and from the stage.
The other factor is that bands want a $5000 a night sound mix,
but can only afford $75-150, but still expect Showco or Meyer Sound quality mixes.
Bottom line you can have a top notch mixer behind the board, and the sound will still be fair, because there is no budget for the right tools
On the other hand I have seen several $30,000 sound systems sounding like crap, because the nut behind the wheel is marginal at best.
Or doesn't understand the music.
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 8:56 pm
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| We were the first of several bands at an out door show. When I put my steel guitar together and set it up on stage, the sound man said, "What in the hell is that." Right away I realized we were in trouble. On the other hand, opening for Gene Watson, one of the best sound companies I have ever heard on the sound. Also an outdoor gig. As was said, you get what you pay for. Jody. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 9:25 pm
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| Any sound person who does at least a decent job gets a big thanks from me in person. I have had the best results when I keep my stage volume down (again with a good sound person). |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 12:54 am
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Dan I hear you on that too.
I saw Trilock Gurtu a few weeks back, and inspite of a very beat up house sound system, the sound man did an excelent job.
At the end of the set I went and shook his hand.
Turned out he was a yank living in Spain, and we had a nice long talk, and went back and yaked with the band too.
More often than not I am not at all pleased with a live mix, for reasons that are clear to me : bad mixing inatentivenese, not the system.
So when I find a good job being done, under difficult conditions I certainly give a merci, good job,
to one of the most important people involved in the show.
And often the least apprciated.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 June 2004 at 02:24 AM.] |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 6:26 am
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When I was trying to get my stage sound together I used to ask for help from the soundman before the gig. I would ask him to keep track of my dynamics/tone and let me know where I needed improvement. Was I too quiet playing pads, too loud on the solos, lows cutting through, highs too strident.... that sort of thing. I learned a series of invaluable lessons from regular old club soundmen.
Bob |
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Scotty Wenzel
From:
Lawrence, KS
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 10:08 am
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Having engineered hundreds of live shows through the years, I have to say that, yes, it is a difficult job, but if you are responsive to the artists and ask them what they specifically need in a house and monitor mix during sound check, you'll end up with a great final mix and happy musicians. Also taking as much time as needed to get the mix right is critical. This makes for comfortable musicians, and less stress makes for better performances...
Having said that, I also have to state I have also had to work with a few bands, usually hard rock knucleheads, that were just down right immpossible to please. I always had a couple extra unused faders on the FOH board labeled "MIX" (..meaning complaints), that weren't hooked up to anything. When the bass player's girl friend had come back to FOH saying that her boyfriend wasn't loud enough, even though he was rockingly loud, I would just happily and diplomatically say OK, then start pushing up one of the "complaints" faders till the girlfriend looked happy and wandered off. Yes, cruel perhaps, but it always worked to ward off the pests.... I'll probably end up in sound-man hell for that admission. 
sw[This message was edited by Scotty Wenzel on 08 June 2004 at 11:10 AM.] [This message was edited by Scotty Wenzel on 08 June 2004 at 11:11 AM.] |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 10:48 am
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| AAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHHhRRRrrGGGGGGGgggggggg!Don't get me started! |
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Dave Boothroyd
From:
Staffordshire Moorlands
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Posted 8 Jun 2004 11:28 am
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Scotty, there won't be room in there.
Not only does everybody do it, we even teach our students the trick!
Don't forget to leave a foldback pot or two spare too. Just because you can hear the Bass monitor from outside the building, that does not mean the Bass player can hear it from two feet away.
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Cheers!
Dave
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Jennings Ward
From:
Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Jun 2004 7:03 pm
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| First lesson. Never hire a tone deaf Banger player as a sound man. Second lesson: Loud: is the worst thing you can do to a sound system. ;Overdriven: It is hard to explain that Carnagie Hall only had 20 watts of audio power. Not light bulb. there is a difference.. And after working Daytona Int. Speedway sound system, I know what a sound problem is and can be. No happy medium can ever be achieved. In my own experience, strive for tone and balance, volume and loudness last.....keep plenty extra knobs and faders that dont do anything, and by all means own and and use a good db meter........jennings |
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Brian Wetzstein
From:
Billings, MT, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2004 10:49 am
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I agree that the soundman goes under thanked. I always say thank you(even if I wasn't thrilled), but whenever I feel good about the mix I usually palm the guy a couple bucks. He won't forget you.
I always tip bartenders too even when I get free beverages. He still has to pour them right?
Keeping the stage volume low is truly the way to go. The soundman can use the signal without it competing with the stage level. The last band I played in had six members and was still the most quiet group I have ever played with. I really enjoyed that.
brian |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 11 Jun 2004 1:10 pm
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| I just played an award show yesterday with all rock bands. We almost walked off stage after two songs. The monitors were totally distorted. The Twin reverb they gave me was distorted. The only thing being heard from the mains were bass and drums. NO steel.I will NEVER play a venue again without my Webbs. The sound man had no clue how to mis a country band. The next time we will request to bring our own sound man or we won't play. A bad sound man can ruin a good band. A good sound man can make a mediocre band sound good. Yesterday was the worst I'vs experienced in thiry five years. Disgraceful. |
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Les Pierce
From:
Shreveport, LA
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Posted 12 Jun 2004 7:29 pm
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I don't understand why most sound people seem to believe they are mixing a record in a studio. I think the purpose of a sound system is to elevate the stage level so it can be heard in a large venue, not to remix the band to the sound man's taste. I personally hate it when the sound man has somebody muted and chops off half of their solo. What business has he deciding who will be heard, and who won't?
Go back to giving the same mix in the monitors as is in the mains, and let the band develope a little taste in their playing.
How come there isn't some kind of automatic mixing program out there? It could have a bunch of presets modeled after your favorite sound mix, just match up the input levels and click OK. Sounds good to me.
Les
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Strat,Tele
Dekley S-10
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Bob Hickish
From:
Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Jun 2004 9:00 am
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| I was playing in a trio , old country and swing , we were invited to play an all live band concert and when we arrived to our surprise it was all R&R bands [ Talk about being the Ba$&%$# Calf at the Rodeo } when we kicked it off all I could hear was the Lead singers Guitar and it was so loud that it hurt ! I could go on and on about this and how bad it was BUT ! what come of it was Denny Seacord a long time pro of Country music said thats it !! and Retired ! we last total control of our sound . I will never do this kind of thing again with sound guys that don't have a clue about your type of music , No affiance to Rockers !! but western swing ! NOT in that Environment !!!! I still get upset thinking about it . |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 13 Jun 2004 10:37 am
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In the last few years of touring the states and the UK I have ended up working with regular house sound guys in all sorts of rock/country/whatever clubs and venues.
For the most part the sound men are pretty good. The bands on the same bill that are complaining usually cause there own problems. The "more me" in the monitors syndrum is a typical problem with bands that don't know how to deal with stage sound. When I work with new bands on the scene and they start screwing up the stage sound I suggest that instead of turning up what they want to hear (themselves) they find a way to turn down something else that is cluttering things up. For drummers I ask them if they can hear and understand the vocals. If they can't I tell them that they are playing too loud.
On young drummer recently told me that he thought I was nuts when I first told him about the hearing the vocals thing but that he tried it and it works.
There are way more lousy bands than idiotic sound men.
Bob
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