Tuning Steel to Piano Question

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Our church piano is tuned flat so I am going to have to tune down to get with it. The steel and the piano both are tempered tuned. So, what note on the piano do I use as my standard? Is an A on a piano supposed to be 440? I don't want to compound the problem of getting the two instruments in tune with each other by tuning one tempered tuning to another tempered tuning, which may not be the same at all. They play the organ and piano together (yuck) and they are not in tune with each other. I suggested that the piano needs tuning and they said it was only tuned six months ago, to which I replied, well it's time for another tuning. They said they would take care of it, so hopefully, I will be able to tune up properly before too long. I still have my original question though. Which note on the piano should I calibrate my tuner to?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

On E9 tuning I tune the F# strings to the piano.
E and B I tune a little higher.
G# and C#I tune a little lower.

Bob Wood · From: Madera, California, USA

Try tuning your E's & B's to 442 then go from there.

Bob

Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

You say the piano is tuned flat; plus it is temper tuned. Because of this I have no idea what any of the notes are tuned to.

But the following should help. Normally a piano is tuned ET straight up every note in the octave around middle C. This is called temper tuning. So IF the piano was not tuned flat as you say, then not only the A note but the E note and all other notes would be dead on 440 in the octave around middle C.

Many pianos use a "stretch" method of tuning which means that each octave above middle C all notes are progressively sharpened slightly. And each octave below middle C is progressively flattened slightly.

Since you say it is tuned flat, (assuming it is temper tuned to ET) then use either the E note or the A note and match that. Example if either note was 438, then calibrate your tuner for 438 on E or A and go from there.

If the piano was tempered to something other than ET, then I am at a loss to tell you which note to tune up to.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 24 June 2004 at 05:38 PM.]

Jim Florence · From: wilburton, Ok. US * R.I.P.

Well here goes, What allways worked best for me was to [I've tuned to D9th, ever since pedals] but tune your open strings to a full chords on the piano , not just one note. Have the pianist play the chords repeatedly while you tune your strings to blend by your ear. Then have the pianist be quiet while you tune the rest of the strings. I could never tune to them "string for note" Same way with brass, only they play one note to your chord.

Jim Florence · From: wilburton, Ok. US * R.I.P.

I wrote that post without noticing that he was calibrating a tuner,. Cancell what I said.
Jim

Lincoln Goertzen · From: Taylor, British Columbia, Canada

Jim, your post is still valid, though. Sometimes when tuning an instrument to another instrument, you can't use a tuner as well as you could ordinarily.

To return to the original question, however, I would recommend calibrating your tuner to the 'A' note on the piano, and then tune your steel, tempering That to your 'E' note on your tuner.

If that doesn't make sense, then I will try to clarify what I meant.

Lincoln

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

When I started playing steel guitar in 1948, my mother also played piano. I couldn't get in tune with the piano then, and now, after 56-yrs. I still can't tune to a piano! I gave up trying a long time ago.

And now, I don't even care!

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Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

You can tuna fish but you can't tune a piano!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

1. Get over the fact that it's NEVER gonna be perfectly in tune with ANY PIANO for all notes
2. Find a method that works for you and use it.

Actually, the way Earnest suggests is the way I always tune -- no matter whether there is a keyboard in the equation or not -- and it is a pretty good compromise. But it IS a compromise. If a string combination really beats against the kb, avoid it when you can. If you have to fudge your A+F position up a bit, WELCOME TO THE CLUB, that's just the way it is. We have the advantage of playing one of the most beautiful, flexible instruments in existence. The little tuning problems are a minor cross to bear, IMHO.

I would tune A's to the piano and temper the tuning pretty much as EB mentioned: tonics and fifths a bit high; thirds and sixths a bit low. The closer you come to just intonation, the more you'll sound in tune with YOURSELF and the less with the KEYBOARD. The closer you come to equal temperament ('straight up on the tuner dial') the less you sound in tune with YOURSELF and the more with the KEYBOARD. It's not that hard to find the happy medium that works for you. I don't ever change my tuning method just because I play with a fixed pitch keyboard and I don't get many complaints.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
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C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Larry as usual speaks a great deal of wisdom. The following are the facts as I see them.

The piano is among those instruments that are fixed pitch tuned. That is, it cannot be altered by the player while playing. Other instruments, like the trombone and steel guitar are unlimited when it comes to the player being able to alter the pitch of the instrument while playing.

Because of the fixed tuning being mandatory on a piano, it is necessary that they generally be tuned ET (within a given octave). While piano tuners can alter this somewhat, they still in NO way have the latitude that many other instruments have.

A violinist (fiddle player if you are from Rio Linda

) for example, can alter on demand just about any note or notes the player wishes.

As a result of this anamoly between instruments, it is impossible for a variably pitched instrument to be IN tune with a fixed pitch instrument (ex; piano), UNLESS, that variably pitched instrument is tuned and played straight ET (all notes at 440 ref).

Since the overwhelming majority of pedal* steel players (I believe) tune JI (tuning the beats out), trying to tune to a normally tuned piano, can be a nightmare. This is also pretty much true using the regular guitar as an example.

While a regular guitarist CAN raise given strings by bending the strings, they cannot lower given strings. So there has always been a tuning clash between a regular guitar and a steel IF the steeler insists on tuning JI.

So again, agreeing with Larry and others, use the A note on the piano (or E note) and go from there. You will not end up in tune on every note of course UNLESS you are among the few that tune straight up.

carl

* Note: it is interesting to note that there has been and are a number of lap steelers who do tune ET more or less. In fact some lap tunings leave no choice. A full diatonic tuning or E13th are examples of tunings that cannot be tuned straight JI.

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 25 June 2004 at 08:34 AM.]

Al Vescovo · From: Van Nuys, CA, USA * R.I.P.

For my purposes, I always tune with the Bass. If there is no Bass I tune with fifths played on the piano. After I get the median pitch, I tune harmonically. It works for me. Al

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I suggest that you donate a piano tuning to your church. There's nothing worse than a piano and organ playing together out of tune, and you shouldn't try to get between them. For the health of your congregation, tune that darn piano!

Earnest wrote:

quote:
On E9 tuning I tune the F# strings to the piano.
E and B I tune a little higher.
G# and C#I tune a little lower.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 25 June 2004 at 03:37 PM.]

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

1. Do what Bob said,get that Piano up yo A 440.
2. Then Tune the E to 442.
3. Then tune the guitar the way Larry suggest.

I had a lesson with a very wise steel player a while back. Here is how he told me to tune. Tune the Es to 442 Then tune the yang yangs out. He said the guitar would sound better ,I would sound better and I would play better. So thats the way I have been tuning and it works. So, I'm not looking back. As he said if you spend all your time tuning you will never play.

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