Passion in your playing

Doug Jones · From: Oregon & Florida

Last night was the final round of the Colgate Showdown at the big club in our area. I was the house steeler and at it's conclusion we invited area singers and players up to perform. It's seldom that so many musicians show up at one time to one place. When they do, I notice there is a need to "show-off"; if you will. It was when local steelie Pete Burak and guitarist Artie Bechtel got up I noticed, regardless of who was out there, they play their instruments appropriately to the song and with passion. My point is: where in your performance presentation do you draw the line between hot doggin' and downright gut wrenchin' emotion? Granted a hot 2/4 may call for all the cheater licks you know in some form of 16th note flurry. On the other hand a beautiful ballad can either be butchered by the need to cram every trick and contrapuntal lick by overplaying or display a tenured sense of appropriateness executed through a passion to create. I admire musicians that can demonstrate the latter, regardless of their technical prowess. Furthermore, it is a treat to play with others that have a refined sense of stage ettiquette. Whaddya think?

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Doug:Great thread.I've never been able to play a barrage of 16th. notes at lightning speed,I've never had those kind of chops.I always try to play for the love of the song first,and I approach every solo as though it may be my last.I've been playing mainly 6 string in a Soul Band these days,and there are a few younger players that sit in and crap all over the vocalists and such.maybe it's a getting older thing.20 years ago I used to get yelled at all of the time for stepping on everybody else.It took a long time for me to get it.

Ron Jones · From: Lenoir City, Tennessee, USA

A good freind once told me that you have to decide what you want to do with your talent.
You can be a sideman who's sole purpose is to make the singer look good or you can be a showdog and make you look good. Seeing as how most bands have singers I chose to be a sideman. Thank You Deke for your wisdom.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

<....burp...>

I think the word is "approprium"..

EJL

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Passion would be 3 perfect notes sliding in and out of "blue" and making you "feel".

For the dictionary definition look up : Lloyd Green.

Hotdoggin' is 10 notes in the same place and just so's you get them all out.

See any 80 off 100 rock guitarists.

You can back up a singer perfectly and still be very impressive at the same time.
ie. Good Taste

See also : Lloyd Green.

I met Pete at ISGC and we talked a bit.
Though I didn't hear him play, I am not suprised he plays with passion and good taste.
He gave me the distict impression that would be so.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 May 2004 at 03:52 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Doug!
Hey, thanks for the sit-in!
I really enjoyed playing your LeGrande D-10.
That steel plays great and sounds sweet from the lower frets to way up there in the stratosphere.
Since we both have black Emmons steels that would look great on stage side-by-side, maybe we can do one of those "Wall of Steel" nights together sometime (that's code for "I need to steal some of your E9th licks

)!
Thanks!
Pete B.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Great post there, Sir Duggie.

YOU are ALWAYS tasteful in your playing....and when your close friend Pete was playing with that lady over at the bowling alley place.....he displayed some of the finest "creative" stuff I'd ever heard him play.

To me, the dividing line between good/mediocre players is this: The "GOOD" player approaches the band stand with an open mind and fresh, positive attitude, plenty of rest before sitting down to play, and with a desire to do his very best on every song, EVEN IF, it's only Elvira. He listens to the song, the phrases therein, and then, AND ONLY THEN, plays notes or phrases that are 100%, totally, complimentary to the song being played/sung.

The other kind of player, arrives late, is dead-tired, has a couple shots of alcohol, with nothing more than a head full of memorized hot licks, "runs" and/or whatever, and then with each song, attempts to incorporate all those memorized thingies into the song without regard as to whether it actually fits, is appropriate or not. They stand out quite readily and IMHO, there are entirely too many of them.

Music is supposed to be an art form. We've all witnessed what ravages a no talent, no taste, wanna-be musician can do to an otherwise good song. Mere volume, lots of treble and reverb simply will not overcome those glaring handicaps.

[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 29 May 2004 at 10:16 AM.]

Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

I hope it's OK for a drummer to join all you musicians on this thread(yes, I've heard all the jokes), but I enjoyed all the comments and I can really relate. As a country drummer, I've always been a sideman, never cared much for lead drums anyway.

As a kid, I learned to play from my dad. No, Dad wasn't a drummer, he was country singer and a darn good one I might add. He didn't teach me how to play, but what to play. Things like when to play louder, when to play softer(especially this part), not to speed and not to drag(especially this part). Basically, compliment the vocals and give the band something solid to work with.

I remember as a kid being asked who my favorite drummers were. Knowing they were expecting to hear Louis Bellson, Gene Krupa or maybe Buddy Rich, I loved seeing their puzzled looks when I said Willie Cantu, Willie Ackerman and Buddy Harmon.

Anyway, thanks to Dad's early lessons, I've managed to play about as much as I want for over thirty years. I guess, for me it's a way to survive(pun definately intended).

From this steel guitar lovin' drummer, Hope to see you at some of the shows.

Jim

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Ray, I seem to get the idea that you have seen several of these miscreants in our local area.

I'd kind of like to know who they are, as myself, Larry Behm, Pete B, Doug Jones, Harley James, and a couple whose names escape me right now are the only ones that are working.

Pray, tell us.

Maybe you went to the Eric Clapton/Robert Randolph show..

Otherwise it sounds kind of like you're running down our Local Guild of active players, or some individual players that you're not mentioning.

That's kind of dismaying to those of us that are out here trying very hard to keep our craft going in these days of too many people giving up and discouraging us further.

If you are running down the guys that are actually getting out and getting paid for playing in public, playing what they have to play to keep and get gigs, I think they and/or we would like to know why. It'd also be interesting to find out who these guys are.

Pray, tell us

Portland's Pedal Steel community is very active, and all the bands with steel players I've heard in the last month sounded pretty good to me. Thanks to a lot of effort by the guys I know, there are more pedal steel guitars in the local bands than there are keyboards.

I've had plenty of people from the forum come even long distances to see myself, Doug, Pete and Larry without reading or hearing anything negative. Some of them actually posted that they liked what they heard..

Where's all this negative stuff from you coming from?

Pray, tell us

EJL

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Wally Maples · From: Murfreesboro, Tennessee, USA

No one can DO HARM playing drums like Buddy Harmon. He was my idol when I played behind twins who did all the Everly stuff. Man what licks.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

WEll there Eric West........ I've reread my post above and nowhere do I see a single negative value pointed at anyone individual either living or dead; certainly none of those, yourself included, that you rose so quickly to defend.
I've played enough years to have experienced many of the type that I attempted to describe in my post, as contributing little to the art form of music.
Nowhere do I see that any of my comments described any specific geographical state, region or country. Likewise I did not limit my comments to "COUNTRY WESTERN MUSIC".
I've personally observed of what I speaketh and those were my comments. Are you suggesting that my my comments are less valid or welcome than your own?
Lot's of great musicans in Portland and always a joy to go listen to them.
That's the way I see it; it's the truth; and I'm gonna stick to it.

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

Ray
When I told you in that eMail that I considered my self an amateur Steeler !!!! I didn't think you would tell every one !!! Smile your in cant"ed Computer :]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Ray, I apologize if I took your post wrong, but it seemed really pointed at players in bands that you have gone out and seen in the last 20 years in our area.

I've played in about a hundred of them, 30 some at Jubitz alone, and I've pretty much known all the players that you'd have gone out and seen here from Neil Rogerson, Danny Shields, and Richard Edge to Packy Perkins. Mark Simpson, Ron Stevens, Robin Suskind, Lynn Stafford, Bill Stafford, Bill Richards, Pete Martell, Duane Matthews, Harley James, Pete Burak, Larry Behm, John Carter, Dale Granstrom, and a dozen that I've forgotten, and I don't remember hearing the kind of tastelessness or destructive forces that you are talking about.

I have always called these guys my friends, and was wondering which of them, or us, rather, fall into your category of such horrible players.

I note that other players of your caliber, or maybe tenure like Mr's Emmons, Franklin, Green, Hughey, Dixon, Granstrom, Carver, and other guys that have been at it for "fifty years" don't seem to have such a negative opinion of the type of players that are out here working with whatever limited skills, education, or even "taste". I don't speak for them, certainly, but I seem to see their enthusiasm pointed more at getting more of them "out there", and not disparaging them.

Again I'd like to know which players in which area you are talking about.

I'm very proud to have met, played with, helped, imposed apon, and listened to the guys in our area, and I'd like to think that I'm probably the most supportive of the "least of them". I've gotten as much or more as I've given, that's for sure. I'm a little miffed to think that they are possibly being represented as tasteless, and non-artistic by one of their fellows.

I personally can't think of one that doesn't deserve to be out playing music for money. Damn sure not for $50 bucks a night.

I don't always like my playing, sound system, or the bands I've chosen to work with instead of sitting home not contributing, and maybe you heard one or more of these fellows on an off night.

Perhaps you can cite three of these unworthy miscreants.

Or at least in or on what area, record, or radio station you heard them .

Maybe I'll agree with you.

Up to this point, I don't.

EJL

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Well now, I certainly never intended for my post to be misconstrued by ANYONE, first and foremost, YOU, my good friend Eric West.

I don't believe that in either of My posts, I made any mention that my comments pertained exclusively "or otherwise" to this area, Portland, Oregon.

Are you limiting my "observations/comments" to a mere twenty years?......... Son, you've probably forgotten that I had been playing professionally, over radio and television and at the area's top dance hall (15 years) with top name local country artists as well as many from the GRAND OLE OPRY itself, by the time you were BORNED!!!

Failing to recognize this FACT, I'm sure influenced your hot and hasty negative response to my most sincere comments that I contributed to Doug Jones original post. He is a premier guitar player, as are those you hastened to mention. I had no intention of getting flamed by YOU.......nor did I foresee that my generalized comments would be twisted and distorted into a personal verbal assault toward me.

While you've "played in about a hundred" bands, I've played in perhaps, less than two dozen during my musical life. I guess, I'm just a little more particular as to whom I share a stage with and for how much I expect to be paid for my services. I refuse to prostitute myself, simply for glory.

Thank GOD! Jubitz has never been the high-light of my life! Never has, never will be!

I seem to recollect that both I and (the late) guitar virtuoso Buddy Fite, who was also an early day local steel guitarist, played on Oregon's VERY FIRST TELEVISION Station. I've played over the years on all of the local TV stations; some 35 regional radio stations, in dance halls and clubs. I've had an excellent opportunity to see, hear and judge what is out there for public consumption. In fact, I started playing at age 14 and was the AFM's YOUNGEST UNION MEMBER while still in high school.

WHO pray tell, is Neil Rogerson? I did see Danny Shields play just once but chose not to return for a second experience.....altho' he did visit me in my home on several occasions. And WHO, are Richard Edge and Packy Perkins? Because I don't know them and have in fact, never heard of them, does that lessen my right to comment on this Forum? WHO is Mark Simpson, Ron Stevens, Bill Richards, Pete Martell, Duane Matthews?
Where/when did they play? Was it before I was born? Throughout my playing years, I've never used alcohol or drugs, thus, since my mind has been clear, how is it that these big names to whom you refer, have escaped me? Was it because I might have been playing elsewhere at the same time?

I've always been a BIG FAN of Dale Granstrom, Bill Stafford, Harley James and Robin Suskind.......while the others you've mentioned here, I hold the highest respect for. Good musicians. Great people!

Please, ole Eric West, direct my attention to the specific phrases wherein I allegedly was unfairly critical of "your personal friends". I've not made any kind of personal attack on anyone!

From the folks that keep calling me at my home asking information about the steel guitar........I cannot understand your negative stance toward me.

When Pete Burak wanted to discuss the method of how Speedy West made his bar slamming up-the-neck signature sound, I didn't beg him to come over, nor did I give him the cold shoulder when he approached me, nor did I charge him a fee for my time, and I DID INVITE HIM TO TRY IT OUT ON THE BIGSBY.

A number of players from Seattle and elsewhere have visited my home on more than one occasion, extracting from me, various tips on how to "play better" or how to "play this specific lick or that one". I've never solicited their phone calls/email nor have I charged them a fee.

You've stated "I'd like to know which players in which area you are talking about".

Eric, I hate to tell you this, but you're NOT at the top of any of my lists! So please relax. Or, are you acting on behalf of all the other local players, like their spokesperson or music agent or what is it that's behind this issue. Just what is YOUR agenda?

By your own words, YOU are a humble soul,
and I'm confident that your local musician friends do feel extremely indebted to YOU for your "support".

"I'm a little miffed to think that they are possibly being represented as tasteless, and non-artistic by one of their fellows"....
YOUR words, Eric. You're the one that drug their names into this post, I certainly didn't. And I purposely avoided making ANY personal references toward anyone of them or any other. I'm sure they feel secure in the knowledge that you will rise at once to their defense even when it totally unnecessary and exists only in the mind of my current antagonist.

$50.00 per night? I tho't that is what Jubitz paid all the musicians there, but I wouldn't know, as I've not been so blessed.

From your words, it's easy to see that you doubt my abilities to see, hear, analyze and then comment responsibly. I appreciate your personal concern about my short-comings that you have been so quick to recognize and comment on here in this Forum. What would I do without you?

And once again, near the end of your latest post, yu've pressed me to "name at least three of these unworthy miscreants". I want you to realize Eric, YOU are not on any of my lists!!! Why is it necessary for me to name any "area, record, or radio station" on which I might have heard them.

Eric, I hope it won't disappoint you too much, but I really DO NOT REQUIRE that YOU agree with me about ANYTHING! If ever I feel a need for it, I'll email you ASAP.

In the meantime Duggie Do-Right, it was a great post "until"...........

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Ray, and I'm definitely not your "son", let's just say that for arguements' sake that I AM one of the worst offenders of your listed crimes against taste and art.

If not, in the future, I will try and jam even more little tags and snippets into even smaller spaces. I show up to work at the last minute, tune as much as I can and turn it up to earsplitting volumes. What I play has often very little to do with the melody line, will have even less, and more to do with the bottom line. The only thing you mentioned in your derrogatory harrangue I don't do is drink. I'm not going to start after 25 years on your account.

I will turn both my treble and reverb up another notch.

I'll still work every weekend, like I have for the last 25 years, a lot of which were mostly 5-6 nites a week. Now there aren't that many clubs that even do weekends, I'm having to play with 3 or 4 bands to get that done, and that with the help of players like Doug, Pete, Larry, Felix and Dale G.

How much better are you than I? I guess you've enumerated enough evidence for this worldwide audience.. You've got me convinced.

Regardless.

I'm tired of you cutting down other steel players abilities.

I don't do it. Not even in private if I can find some positive thing to say.

I'm tired of your not so thinly masked insinuations and your subtle sarcasm.

I don't care where or who they are directed at.

I don't mind at all letting people know where I stand.

If they are working at all they are better in my estimation than somebody that just sits home and grouses.

Maybe I'm not seeing all the negative posts begging my correction from the rest of the Forum. My mailbox is pretty much empty.

Maybe they're all trying to type, and send all at once.

I'm tired of your sniping at people that work when you refuse to out of your smug, ill placed condescension.

Youe playing is and was GREAT as far as I ever heard, even for your limited participation in Our Craft over the years, but to me at least it's been way overshadowed by your negative harangues of the un-named struggling steel guitar PERFORMER.

As they say...

Whatever..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 June 2004 at 10:17 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Eric..
I for one didn't see Ray's post as being regional centric at all.

Sorry, what he said could as easily pertain to anywhare,
as to just players in his area and yours.

I am sure Ray has seen many on TV and video, and travelling acts coming through, and I also imagine he has seen acts in other places too.

But what he DID say in relation to playing was spot on.

Not tryin to start a 2nd food fight here, but I thought you took umbrage for something general,
as if it were something being localized and negative..

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

I have always maintained that the SONG or MUSIC was the "STAR" if there is such a thing.. Any GOOD pro will tell you the same. You playing are only as good as you can play the music..You as an an individual are not STARS,,,,,, THE MUSIC IS. REMEMBER THAT...............LOL...... JENNINGS

STARS

Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

Gentlemen,

With all due respect to all of you, I think Doug's original post has taken a hit since the flow has gone in an unpleasant direction. I am a very new forum member and was really enjoying everyone's comments for a short while. I used my third post ever to add what I thought might be some interesting comments from a drummer who loves the steel guitar. I was looking forward to your comments.

Wally, I totally agree with you on Mr. Harmon.

I certainly don't want to jump in the middle of things and add unwanted opinion, but I don't think Ray was pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I believe it was just an observation. I have had the good fortune to work with some of the really great steelers and I've worked with some of the less than great steelers.(Was that diplomatic or what?). I've worked with players who played exactly what should be played, and I've worked with some who must have thought they were being paid by the note.

Anyway, it sounds like you have a very active and exciting steel guitar scene around Portland. ENJOY IT.

No offense intended from this steel guitar lovin' drummer.

Jonathan Gregg · From: New York City

Gee, I liked this thread when I started reading, but then it became something else altogether.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Sorry all. I just got a little tired of all the grousing.

Ray.

I guess I just forgot how important you told me you were.

Probably just my Adult Attention Deficit Disorder..

Time for some more Skittles™

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 30 May 2004 at 07:29 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Ray, sir, thank you. Considering your years of experience and exposure to the development of our instrument, I'd guess, without knowing you at all, that you've seen more than your share of the type musician(?)described---The late-arriving, overplaying, cocky, self-serving egomaniac, who's on the bandstand to chase women and a cheap buzz. Hey, I used to BE that guy. And I think it's great that there's such a thriving PSG scene up in the Northwest, where you guys can share ideas with each other. And Eric, whether you know it or not, your writing so passionately implies that you bring the same emotinality to the gig. Not a bad thing to have in the pac-a-seat. You've written in numerous postings of Tele players being too loud, bassists being out of tune, and drummers that couldn't, or wouldn't, keep time. We've ALL had to deal with this, more than we've wanted to, whether playing the Opry, or some dive outside off town.
But this thread is very simple---do we play the song, or do we practice musical masturbation at the band's expense?
I think it's a wonderful experience, and a real turning point in a musician's career, when he realizes that, no matter how many notes he plays, or how few, he's gonna get paid the same money.
Even if it IS only 50.00 a night...

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Somebody pass me some Smores... Now where did I put my weenie stick?

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

yeah---beats practicing.

Pookie Anselmi · From: Galliano, Louisiana, USA

Hey Ray, I think your comments cover a wide regional/national area. I used to play in a country cover band years ago as a lead guitarist.

We had no steel players nor fiddle players in our area. So it was drums, bass, lead guitar and a rhythm guitar. The rhythm guitarist was a rock music player. And every ride he took sounded rock.

He sounded great for the rock and roll but on the country stuff, it sucked. He was a show-off too.

WE also have in our area a tremendous bass player. When he plays, it sounds like lead bass. Although, it may have its place, its not always good. And these are some great guys who are my friends.

I think everyone at some time or another gets on stage and hot-dogs it a little. But, I don't think it should be on every song.

So, as a newbie here, I think your comments were just general. I didn't take offence to any of it. You could well have been hearing us play(ha ha)

Have a good one.

Pookie

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