Ricky Davis has ruined my sound

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I use to have a great big old sound with lots of everything, I loved it for over 30 years. I heard him play here where he is playing those hot licks with the tab etc. It got me to thinking, more highs, less bass.

I tried it with my band for 3 weekends, my Webb with a 12, high's on 8, mid on 4, bass on 3. It cuts through everything, stands out all by it self. We mic the amps through a big PA system. I had to put the amp on the floor because I could not stand to hear all the high end.

I am going to try to stay with this because of what I know I am getting out front not on stage.

I also turned down my volume and let the sound man do all of the work. I may toss my volume pedal soon. Stand by.

Larry Behm

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

You sound like a suicide bomber with a high frequency bomb? Steel Guitar Hamas? But, I doubt the pedal will go off when you toss it.
Maybe a music store in your area has a musician's therapist?
Good Luck
Dennis

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Interesting post, Larry. Yes Ricky does play with a very "toppy" old-school sound --with great results, I should add.

That sort of sound really cuts through in an ensemble situation, and seems to me to allow more space in the mid-range for the rhythm guitar and vocals.

Other thoughts?

Reggie Duncan · From: Mississippi

I have increased my high end over the last couple of years, too.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

It's one of the sad facts of life that the sound I love to get in the practice room (warm and fat) is the least-effective on stage....

RR

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Its been my observation that many steel guitar players go for the warm sound, and when you hear them on stage there is poor string separation and the tone sounds like mud. I am a student of the west coast sound.
Give me all the twang there is . Listen to Ricky Davis on the Linda Lay album. Classic retro Sho-Bud high end sound with lots of reverb. Thats MY sound. Thats one of the reasons I play a ZB Custom for that classic west coast sound. Warm to me means mud. I don't think alot of people understand that what you are hearing on stage is not what is heard out front. The first thing to be absorbed in a room is the highs. I've been on stage with Telecaster players whose tone out of a Twin reverb could cut diamonds, but when you go out front it sounds nice and full with a clean edge.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 24 March 2004 at 10:05 AM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 24 March 2004 at 10:08 AM.]

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

I have a theory in my head lately relating to this issue. Doing all this work with my Black Box and Fender Twin and Webb and Session 400 etc. has got me really analyzing tone in a sort of obsessive way. First off, I take a look at my collection of favorite steel guitar recordings. On the top of the list are Jimmy Day's old stuff, Buddy's, Lloyds, Byrd's, Mooney's, and Brumley's to name a few. All of these classics have a real clear, bright, tubey, sweet tone. The golden era of steel guitar. To my knowledge they were all thru tube amps, at least the older recordings I'm referring to. Over the years it seems that the tone trend for some of these but many other players has been to fatten and darken the sound. That seems to conicide with the switchover to primarily solid state amps. Most guitarists and some steel guitarists agree that tube amps give nice highs but solid state amps give more sterile and cold sounding highs. We know that tubes enhance and generate even-ordered harmonics which sound real nice on the ear. Tube amps also have a natural compression to them. Solid state amps tend to be cleaner, more accurate and generate more odd order harmonics when distorting. These odd order overtones from solid state amps dont sound real friendly to the ear, that's why SS steel amps tend to be run cleaner, darker and mellower. Solid state amps are also much less forgiving with dynamics, if you pick too hard it can hurt because the amp will give it to you as either a loud spike in the ear or a whack of ugly odd-ordered harmonic distortion. A tube amp will smooth off the peaks and turn a spike into a nicely compressed and harmonically rich sound. If you try to make your solid state amp as bright at your Fender Twin, you probably will wince at the sound when it gets loud and bright and when you dig into the strings. If you do that on a Twin, it makes you smile.

I also think that people spend so much time alone with their amp at home that they develop a big full range sound from the steel alone. This fat sound is fine when the steel is by itself, but in the context of a mix, trying to fit in with all the other instruments, it just gets gobbled up and winds up sounding dark. And when the player really tries to step up and dig in, it gets loud and harsh, not sweet and rich. Steel used to shimmer and sparkle and there are still some guys who get that sound. I like the idea of using these Genesis or POD type amp modellers (or Black Boxes

) with their loud solid state amps as they can re-inject some of that lost tubelike tone and sweetness and compression to the sound. It would be great to see a tube amp revival for steel. Steel should be clear and bright, but it's gotta be good bright. The Evans, Webb, and Sho-Bub amps kind of get close because they use FET's which are transistors that behave like tubes, sort of. But even they lack power tubes so there's still that missing mojo. There's nothing, nothing like an all-tube amp being driven slightly into overdrive. That's the magic IMHO. Wasn't Buddy's Black album made with a Fender Twin and much of his other stuff with a Standel tube amp? Wasn't Jimmy Day's "Steel and Strings" made with a Fender Pro? Wasn't most all the great Lloyd stuff made with a Twin? Wasn't most all the great Brumley stuff made with a '59 Fender Bassman? Wasn't Mooney's classic stuff done with a Fender? Wasn't pretty much all the Byrd stuff made with a Fender tube amp? Even today Brumley, Lloyd, Buddy, and Byrd still favor their tube amps. Didn't Hughey favor the Evans hybrid with its tube preamp? These are my tone gods. Hmmm.....

Brad Sarno

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Brad has NAILED it totally in my Book.
All my recordings have been through Fender Tube Amps.
To me; it's not so much the Highs for clearity; it is the Kind of Highs that are there and being projected.
Ricky

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

We also have the fact that as we men age, our high end perception gets lower and lower, which means we need to add more treble to hear what might have been flat 20 years (or 40, or howevermany) years ago...Women lose this high end perception much slower, which is why my wife can hear me practice steel UNPLUGGED with headphones in the next room with the doors closed (like a rat peein' on cotton)...she should be an audio engineer!

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Brad, that is exactly my observtion. Well put. I recognize that this is not for everyone though, and thats okay. Ricky Davis's sound is the sound that I hear in my head when I think steel guitar. Beautiful retro tone.

Kevin Macneil Brown · From: Montpelier, VT, USA

This is a great thread. I'd just finished practicing, getting that nice, warm studio sound, and made the decision that I'd really roll off all the high end for my next gig. Then I read this! Re-think time.
In sort of an aside related to "California tone", I've been listening to a lot of Bobby Black of late: old Commander Cody stuff, the Black Brothers disc available here on the forum. Seems to me he favors a somewhat mid-rangey sound that's quite appealing, and sits very nicely against Tele twang. Can any of you tone experts tell me if that round-but-articulate natural compression is an old Sho-Bud thing, or maybe something in Mr. Black's touch?

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

The same could be said for the tone of an arch-top Gibson - there's no doubt that it won't 'cut' like a Fender. That doesn't mean it's not a very desirable and musical sound.

I'd like to hear steel guitar in more genres than we hear it now (wouldn't we all?) - that might mean some moderating of that 'beagle's ear-blistering tone' of the 1960s that Buddy has alluded to from time to time.

In my theatre work I find that the warm tone I prefer doesn't get 'lost' - as long as I'm not up against a brace of electric guitarists! It's nice with piano, bass and drums.

RR

jim milewski · From: stowe, vermont

playing with boosted highs is like driving a really hopped up car, one bad move and whoa!!! you have to develop a certain touch and skill to play with highs and still sound pleasing, I've been experimenting with boosting the upper mids, where it cuts, but not the shrill, plus the thinner strings get thin, while the wounds have great clarity, a pickup with a slant might help, angle it so it is away from the changer on the high strings. I'm also back to tube amps with BWs 1502 non metalic dust cover.

Terry Downs · From: Wylie, TX US

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Yup. That's the way it's done..

I've only said it a thousand times..

Next thing you'll be getting a Sho~Bud.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 March 2004 at 09:57 PM.]

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

That's why I quit using the Profex II... sounds great at home, but when you add all that reverb, delay, warm eq, chorus, etc. on the bandstand it turns into mud. Gimme a steel, amp and just a touch of reverb. The warm "bedroom" sound just doesn't cut it onstage.

Larry Behm... another thing that happens is that your "ears" (your tone preference) changes... often based on musical maturity, but sometimes on physiological factors as you age. I sure like a different tone now than I did when I was playing all the Led Zeppelin stuff!

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 24 March 2004 at 06:53 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I don't know a single top-level "pro" today that plays with as much high-end as they used to on their back-up work. Not Buddy, nor Lloyd, nor Tom, nor Moon, etc.. (You get the picture.) Those slicing, searing highs that typified all those players 30 years ago and made them stand out are gone, plain and simple. Exaggerated highs on the steel just seem to be out of vogue right now. The only top player I can think of today that approximates that sound is Herby Wallace. (Don't get me wrong, I love that "Way To Survive" tone as much as anyone.)

The sound of country music (even real country music) has softened for steelers. Even the steelers that use tube amps today don't have that sound, and it's now the lead players and their Tele's that ring out like a tambourine at a prayer meeting!

jim milewski · From: stowe, vermont

So in various night clubs throughout this great land, the steels will be brighter than the week before, we can do this guys!

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

Hey Brad Sarno, which would be the best tube upgrades (brand) in you opinion? thanks.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Hey Steven; I'll answer for Brad..ha....(sorry Brad if you don't agree..ha)....
The JA Phillips 6L6 GE....>these military NOS are just the most awesome Tubes I've had in my Amp EVER...and I've had everthing there is to offer in it at one time or another...>but Redd Volkaert turned me onto them and I haven't looked back since.
Don't ask me where you can get/find them now....as my resource doesn't seem to have them listed.
But do a search if your interested in the Tube that you'll take to your grave..ha
Ricky

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

To me one of the signs of a good producer or bandleader is the ability to figure out where each instrument should sit in the mix. You would EQ the steel very differently for a solo steel record than you would for fills on a record with three other guitar parts also. Sometimes it takes telling somebody to put down their precious Les Paul, and play a Fender for the chords etc. I think arranging used to be easier, or at least more predictable, when there were less tonal options: saxes sounded one way, pianos another and that was that. Now that everybody has 15 db cut and boost available in every frequency, it's a real challenge not to clog things up. To my ear, there are way too many parts on a lot of modern records; if you need three rhythm guitarists to "sell" a song, maybe you need a better song instead.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Brad makes some great points. As usual.
Tubes really do have a great sound.
My main studio preamps are tubes or hyrids with tubes.

I expect to get one of Brad's boxes to put before the Transfex amp. As a short term solution.

I wish there was a real programable tube amp, similar to my TransFex Pro 212. Tubes all the way thru the line, but also real control.
And a Hilton insertion point AFTER the 1st tube stage.

Steel to preamp direct, patch in Hilton, return to preamp with overdrive and output pre setable, with EQ and effects.
A hybrid amp can have mosfet transistors for doing clean signal manipulation, but do all the real driving thru tubes.

Transistors and IC's can be used to manipulate tubes, and not be in the signal path directly, but alow control.

Then a master multi-power amp section.
Class A with a speaker for each section, you add in another set for more volume.

Plus an "at home and live set" master eq section,
to pre set your different environments without having to re-write all your patches.

Of course you can have hard wired cut out swithces for a clean tubes only path, as well as all the effects control as you wish.

I am sure if I spent a short week with Peavey's development staff (preferably WITH Brad S. also), I could get them building the ultimate steel amp... for most every one from recording purists to stage performers.
I have watched closely the forum discussions of amps and "tone"(shudder), and add my personal studio ideas to that mix.
They have the available technology off the shelf, it's just a question of laying out a over all design schema.

Ricky Davis has been REALLY great in helping me get MY sound.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 March 2004 at 02:13 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I just wanna mention here that alot of the brightness everybody loves is all about where & how the right hand is picking. Ricky's real good at using that element of great tone too.

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

I recently spent an entire afternoon in my music room working on my Twin tone settings, in preparation for a show at one of the larger clubs around here. I found a great sound, running through both channels, full, rich and open with smooth highs, tight bass, etc, etc. Got to soundcheck, carefully dialed in the settings, which I had written down, and pure MUD. The other instruments masked all my beautiful lows and mids so I quickly dialed up some highs that would probably shatter glass at home. Irony: the soundman still thanked me for not playing too bright.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Ricky, thanks for the tip on the NOS JAN Phillips 6L6 tubes. I've haven't been real picky on 6L6's for a long time. I've got some new JJ (Tesla's) in there right now because they bias out pretty cool, at least this quartet does. They sound fine, but I'd like to check out the Phillips. I'm always open to a hot tip like that. As far as preamp tubes, I've been pretty into the old GE long plate ones or a Mullard or Telefunken. I dropped my telefunken a few months ago and it broke the glass nipple of the top and destroyed it.. DOH!. The new Sovtek long plate 12Ax7's sound real nice but some of them were microphonic. RCA's sound ok after they've aged but they can be kind of harsh when new (NOS).

Brad

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