New Member Intro and U-12 Questions

Bob Braasch · From: Castaic, California, USA

Hello everyone. Just want to introduce myself. I currently play guitar and some bass, and want to learn PSG. The sound of a Pedal Steel has haunted me for the last 30 some years and its time to do something about it. Following the U-12 thread in the forum, I believe I would like to purchase a U-12. Would this be a wise choice? Any help and or advice would be greatly appreaciated.
Bob

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

The question Bob is, what sounds of the steel guitar have been hauting you for the past 30years? Is it basically Country music or has it been Swing and maybe Jazz too?
I think that if your answer to all the above is "yes" and that you understand that the "Universal" is a contraption of the two main popular pedal tunings and you being a musician already, the answer could be "Yes".
Just make sure you get some introduction (video) tapes along with it. 10 strings and 3 pedals can be intimidating... imagine 12 string 7 to 8 pedals and 5 levers. So, you want to have some guidance to start your exploration on the right track.

Good luck (you'll need it which ever choice you'll make! Winking

)... J-D.

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

Hi Bob,I've been playing since 1975, and I've always had a U12 or U14. I don't think you'll go wrong by going with a U12. Buy the best one you can afford and it will last you for ever.
As JD said get some courses to start you out and find some one that teaches steel. (If you can.) I never found any one up here in the North country. ha ha Good luck. Larry

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Sidney Malone · From: Buna, TX

Welcome aboard Bob. I think your on the right track. I started on a S-10 and a few years ago switched to a S-12 when I wanted to get into the 6th stuff.

If I had it to do over I would have started on an S-12 and got a live teacher from the start. I pretty much wasted my first 2 years with tab and videos. It works for some but it didn't work for me.

Human nature will push us to start cheap in case we decide to quit (and there'll be times you want to) but I say spend all you can (intrest rates are still low) so it will be an incentive not to quit!!

This forum is a wealth of knowledge!! Everybody from the beginners to the top shelf pros are on here so go spend some money and start stretchin' some strings!!

Good Luck!!

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Fessy S-12U, Future MSA Millennium S-12U, Stereo Steel

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I would skip the U12. I played one for years untill I checked out a D10.
This forum can be misleading. If you count the number of Pro players mentioned in that thread that actually play a U12 you come up with maybe 11. Out of hundreds of pro players there might be some good reasons why the U12 has never really caught on.

I would start with a standard S10 E9 and then move up to a U12 or D10 or whatever you might come up with on your own after you get your hands and mind around the instrument for a while. An E9 will cover quite a bit of ground and keep you busy for a long time. Right off it will be cheaper and easyer to resell when and if you find your playing needs demand a more elaborate tuning.

I am a very open minded, adventurous player and I play pedalsteel for a living. For my needs the U12 does not cut it. For some guys it works and it might be the thing for you at some point. I see no need to start with one though.

Bob

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

Bob suggests bypassing it and suggests that more pro players NOT playing it should tell you something... Well... I don't agree.
A number of the pros came up through the ranks and settled on the D-10 way before there was a S-12. To ask them to change now would be quite an ask.
But...look at Jeff Newman. He was a pro who was at home on the 2 necks, and he saw the value of the U-12 and went for it. There are few who have the vision that he had.
That said, I have always believed that the 2 necks are different-- not just in tuning and approach, but in the pickups used and the heavier string gauges on the C6th neck.
So if you want to play E9 on a U-12 and use E9th string gauges, then it will sound fine, but the B6th stuff will be a little thin-- and vice versa.
Personally, I'm more of an E9th player who likes to dabble with thev 6th tuning, son a S-12 is doing it just fine for me. But I do remember what fun it was to sit a a double neck (when I had one for a few months) and dabble on the C6th...

JW

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I am with the JD's and Winnie's posts.
I have had my D-10 for a year and really like it.
On the other hand my next steel will be a U-12, while keeping the D-10.

Several reasons ;
I play some music where I really want to slip between C6 and E9 interchangably at speed.
I don't need every element of either tuning all the time.
Lightness of a single neck
I play neither purist country nor purist swing jazz, but draw from both.
Greater range of voicings with 12 strings.

I am coming from more a C6th place, but wish there was a bit of E9 on the same neck.
And lightness is a major factor.

Still JD's original question is the most important, what music will you be playing.
Pure country E9 will be fine, blues and jazz, C6 is a must also.
Some non-copyist hybrid, U-12 might be right.

If your doing this, you must be serious, or it just ain't worth it.
So get the best steel you can afford, if it's used it will sell for about what you paid in the future, if you don't trash it.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 March 2004 at 03:42 AM.]

Joe Alterio · From: Irvington, Indiana

I think the 12-string will be the way of the future.....it just makes more sense. All of the 6th stuff is on there with the E lever, and all of the E9 stuff is there as well (I have a lever to raise my 10th string to what the 9th would be).

Plus....if you decide you don't like or want to play 6th style, it is super easy to change the 12 string to an Extended E9.....or heck, just take the bottom two strings off.

I love the 12-string!!!

I'd say go for it, Bob!

Joe

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

Ive always been interestee in a 12 but I hear they dont sound as good and I dont want to sacrifice tone for it. I do think it may be the wave of the future, I mean it makes a lot of sense to me. I think one reason there is so much difference on the way the two necks sound is people just start thinking different when they switch necks. Ive heard emmons play things on e9th you would swear was done on a c6th

Jeff

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I was looking at the Williams web site yesterday, and they have a pic of a single-body, keyless, S12U 7x5, with laquer body and aluminum neck, 400 Series changer. http://www.williamsguitarcompany.com/Sights%20and%20Sounds.htm?Sights+%2B+So unds=Sights+%26+Sounds

If I were going to buy a brand new axe today I think this is what I would get.

I have tried many configurations, and can find no reason to bash any PSG configuration.
(other than to tease some D10'ers!

Like Bob H., I have found what works best for me (an S12U in my case).

I think S12U is where it's at for guitar players who want to learn to play steel.

Also, for guitar players taking up steel, I would reccomend getting the G# to G lower on all 3 G#'s, as well as tunable splits on strings 5 and 9.
I would also add the B to C raise to string 5 on the Boo-Wha pedal.
I also lower string 12 from B to A on the A-pedal.

If I were to go to a double neck, it would have to be a D12.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 27 March 2004 at 11:40 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

This is far too personal a decision for anyone to be able to tell you what's right for you. Some players switch from a S-10 or D-10 to a universal 12 or 14 and 'find themselves'. As Bob mentioned, some find the other direction more fruitful. I have tried both and by far prefer the single tuning approach.

And, IMHO, there is no truth to 12-string guitars not sounding as good as a 10-string. I'll challenge anyone to a tone-fest using either of my guitars. Yes, many feel that they do sound slightly DIFFERENT, but again the perception of tone is in YOUR BRAIN, not someone else's. You wouldn't ask someone else which brand of auto you should buy or whether it should be an SUV or a pickup or a sedan.

IT'S ALL AS GOOD AS YOU MAKE IT.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Billy Woo · From: Los Angeles, CA, USA

There is a Sierra U-12 on Buy n Sell as we speak and I think it's going for $1450.00 I personally think you can't go wrong with a Universal, less strings to pay for and you've got the best of both worlds. By the way I've owned a Sierra U-12 before and they are great, sturdy guitars, a little heavy but built like a tank with interchangeable pickup slot which most Uni's dont have..

Bronco Billy

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I played a D-10 for over 40 years. I then bought a Universal-12. I would never go back to a D-10 for my main PSG.

Having said that, I would recommend anyone getting started to go the D-10 route. Here is why. Much of what has been said as reasons above are more or less true. And some of them very true.

Also, the stigma that has stereotyped the universal, is not one I would want to deal with if I was just starting out. Larry Bell is 100% correct IMO. But that is NOT the perception of the overwhelming majority of players out there. And sound is by it very nature mostly perceptual.

Jeff Newman is a unique player. Probably THE most knowledge expert (on the entire sphere of PSG's and how they are played) on earth today. But Jeff is again unique. NO one out there like him. For him, the universal is absolutely perfect. And he plays it flawlessly and beautifully. There is little IF anything he cannot do on it.

Maurice Anderson is an absolute genious when it comes to the universal steel guitar (or for any other steel guitar for that matter).

This applies more or less to most U players. However,,,,,

For most new players, they do not have the built-in advantage that Jeff and Maurice or Bill Stafford, etc, have.

MOST teaching material and videos are on the basic E9th or C6th played on a S-10 or a D-10. Until this changes, and I do not see it changing for a long time, I would strongly urge any new player to seek either an S-10 or D-10. MOST of what we hear or see is done on one of these instruments. NOT the Universal.

If after some "growth" on the PSG, they feel an urge to migrate to a Universal, then is the time that is more appropo; IMO to do it.

I feel the same way about starting on non pedals and then migrating to pedals. It is the best way to build basics into the magic of music respects the steel guitar.

Now as I said in another thread, IF Buddy Emmons had started on a universal, you have an entirely NEW ballgame. And all bets are off when it comes to that scenario.

Since he started on a Double neck PSG, the masses for many years to come will be more comfortable in that direction than the universal route, IMO.

carl

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Everybody rationalizes why the configuration they choose to play is the best possible choice - and to each their own. But for me,it was a no brainer - U-12 is the way to go. After spending 20 years on a D-10 and now a few years on a U-12 I now realize among other things,how much is missing off the range and layout of both tunings on a D-10.People get used to it and live with the limitations and that's ok w/me. There's a helluva lot of players playing D-10s that play better than I'll ever play but that's my fault. But there are combinations you just can't get on a D-10 and the lightness and compact nature of a keyless U-12 has made the daily life of this 56 year old picker a whole lot easier. To me these are mathmatical facts not really based on opinion and not really debatable. And tone-wise, I've tried but I really can't hear the differences that people talk about between 10 and 12 strings.There's a whole lot more difference between the tone of two different pickups or two different players on the same ax than between the same player on two differently configured axes if you get my meaning.So from my viewpoint that whole "tone" conversation is kind of overrated - and completely subjective. So Bob - you suffered through a long set last night down at Viva Cantina listening to my U-12 Excel - waddaya think? How does my tone stack up?

-MJ-

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

If you're not really into jazz, and you want the extended low range of a 12 string, consider Extended E9th instead. It's a very versatile tuning, and I would argue that it's actually the best tuning for most popular forms of music (jazz being the one exception).

You just take a standard E9th and add a low G# and E to it. It gives you a low end that matches the guitarist in the band so that you can trade parts easily. In 25 years on the bandstand here in California, I've never had a bandleader, session leader or lead guitarist request a steel part that was beyond what the Extended E9th was capable of.

The use of the extra 2 strings is very intuitive because they are just low octaves of the 6th and 8th strings. The same pedals apply to them.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Bob,
I, like you, came to the steel by way of playing lead guitar before. I initialy had a Fender cable S-8 and the a D-8 which didn't do it for me as I missed the low strings I'd gotten used to on the guitar so I went the S-12 route. A D-10 couldn't do it as it didn't have an open E chord or that good old low E and A (with pedal 2) notes that I couldn't do without. I played in a band once (Carl Cody Band) where I was the only lead and had to do things like Honky Tonk and some other guitar type things on steel. They just fell right in place on the S-12. Also on a D-10 your open chord positions are all in the wrong place and don't correspond to the guitar. Just think, on a C neck your open D is in the second fret and it's like playing a guitar in F#, it ain't natural!!! I'm a hillbilly and proud of it so them flats and sharps ain't cool in my book. Hmmmmmm.... Now that I think of it on my S-12 I have to play Raisin' the Dickins and Remington Ride in C# but what the hell, the guitar pickers can just slap on a capo but the fiddle player keeps getting mad.......Later dude, JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You U12 players are a sensitive lot !
All I am saying is start simple and (if you need to) move up to whatever suits your needs.

Bob

BTW: In my opinion if the U12 was going to catch on it would have allready. Its been 20 years. It seems to me that some sort of hybrid Sacred Steel/E9 tuning stands more of a chance of becoming a new standard if the Sacred Steel style keeps exploding like it has been.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I agree with you Bob, 100%.

carl

Bob Braasch · From: Castaic, California, USA

Thank you all for your valuable opinions and knowledge that you share. I believe that the U12 will be the PSG I choose. My only concern is available instructional material. If I cannot grasp it, the Extended E9th is my option. Now I need to find the right PSG for me. Thanks again..
Bob Braasch

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

As a S12U player, I'll have to root for my team. The other night I played with a veteran fiddle player (30+ yrs. experience) and his comment was "wow, you're doing things I've never heard a steel guitar player do!"

It's not that I'm such a virtuoso, a few visits to the Jamboree in Dallas cured me of that notion but this guy had never played with a S12U player and didn't know you could get the low runs and licks that D10 players can't do--not in the E9 context that is.

To me it all just makes good sense--doesn't all that weight and hardware seem a little superflous? And to have virtually all of the licks and chords a D10 guitar has.

If you've been playing for many years on the D10 you should stick with that, this instrument is too hard to learn to have to do twice. The choice for me was easier since I'd played a S10 for about 20 years before I switched.

My recommendation for a newbie it to try out both, make a decision and jump in with one or the other. Or get a S10 and work with that for awhile till you're ready. While you're doing that, listen to Lloyd Green and Tom Brumley, S10 and S11 string players, respectively. Also check out Cindy Cashdollar, Herb Remington and some of the great non-pedal players who never had more than 8 strings. That should give you some idea of how you can do a lot with a little. It's up to you.

JR

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

It is a personal decision.

Before you buy, please read http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

Good luck

Ron

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Bob Hoffnar said
"All I am saying is start simple "
I'll counter with :
On PSG there IS no simple, just complex and more complex.
But in any case a heck of a lot of fun once you hit certain point.

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