steel and dobro

Bernie Straub · From: Folly Beach, South Carolina, USA

Hi everyone. This is my first posting to the forum, but I feel like I know all you guys and gals from lurking for a year or so. I've been playing psg since 1973, professionally from '75-'80, and as a hobby ever since. I play maybe 4-5 gigs a year in the Charleston SC area, but just for fun as I swore never to take another nickel for playing. Yes, the biz took its toll on me. Anyway, I am playing my third Emmons, an S-10 LGII, and love it more every time I slide on the picks.

The reason for this post is to ask y'all if you think PSG skills translate very well to the dobro. I have lately gotten the bug to learn a new instrument and I think I might take the plunge. Do any of y'all play dobro, too?

Bernie Straub

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

welcome Bernie!!

[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 21 November 2003 at 12:21 PM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Welcome Bernie...yeah I just recently took up the resophonic guitar after playing PSG since the early 70's. I'm having a blast!
I am cheating a bit though...I'm tuning it to the inside 6 strings of my C6...low to high:
A C E G A C. With this tuning, I'm able to quickly re-tune the low 3 strings down and the top 2 up to get to the standard G B D G B D "dobro" tuning. I'm starting to get a feel for this new(to me)G tuning, but I think I have alot more to say on the Am7(C6)tuning at the moment. One thing...I have yet to get a usable pickup system(the one I have sounds like cr*p), so I havnt done too much more than acoustic playing. It's really fun to be able to be able to sit around on the front porch and jam with friends without the major production number required for the PSG!

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 21 November 2003 at 12:57 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Pick and bar skills translate well but the G tuning takes a while to get anything out of. As a relative newcomer to dobro myself after 30 years on pedal steel,I'm quite frustrated with the stock G dobro tuning for anything other than bluegrass tunes in G (or A w/a capo). Therefore I've been experimenting with an 8 string variation on the second neck of my Stringmaster to see if there's an 8 string dobro in my future. My proposed tuning has the regular G tuning for the first 6 strings and for strings 7 & 8,I have an E and a C respectively.If the extra strings were in their proper place according to pitch they would be in positions 4 and 6 respectively.By putting them where I do,I keep the core dobro G tuning intact but add the strings at one end of the tuning like chromatic strings on a pedal E9 tuning.The extra strings give me a IV chord in root position,a VI Min,a nice Sus4 and release,a Maj7 and a bunch of other nice open sounding intervals.I've only had it on there a couple days but I can't stop playing it.I think it would sound nice and cover a lot of bases on an 8 string resonator. -MJ-

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

This may open a real can of worms, but that is not my intent. Read to the end of my thoughts before you gather the lynch mob. I've been playing dobro for 30 years, and performing with it for 18 years.
I took up pedal steel about a year ago. I've basically created my own copedant, and have based my tuning on my knowledge of standard dobro G tuning. I will teach myself. I expect to end up playing pedal steel "like a dobro player".
Several years ago, I was asked by a bluegrass band to add some dobro to one of their recordings. I asked why they weren't asking Mr A or Mr B (experienced session players) to do the session. In response I was asked what Mr A's and Mr B's first instruments were. I responded, "pedal steel". The bluegrass band representative then stated that Mr A's and Mr B's dobro playing sounded like the playing of pedal steel players, and that they wanted a player whose first instrument was dobro.
A little later I met a long-time performing banjoist who had just taken up dobro. I was dazzled by a few of his moves. He explained that these were banjo tricks. The tuning is, of course, very similar.
We have steelers right here (Rick & Michael) stating that their steel background influnces their dobro set-ups. That's not a problem. I'm just stating what is to me the interesting fact that one's first, or main instrument, colours everything that follows.

Bryan Bradfield http://www.members.shaw.ca/DirtyHatBand/dirty_hat_band.htm

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Bernie, if you don't have or haven't heard "Resophonic Rodeo" by Gary Morse, this would be a fine example of a very talented steeler who took up 7 string dobro. The cd is available from the forum.

During the summer months, I ocassionally sit in on dobro with an acoustic guitarist & vocalist in a casual bar by the bay at happy hour. It's all classic rock, country rock, pop, & blues. Although 6 string G tuning is fine, I wanted an extended tuning. I tuned my 8 string dobro to (low>high) E F G B D G B D, the E & F strings being higher guages. The most important things this gives me (for this music) are minors without slanting and a fuller dom7.

Bryan, I've been toying with the idea of a G tuning on pedal steel also, as it would be something that I'm comfortable and familiar with. Would you care to post your copedant? I'm sure that it would be of interest to others also.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

No lynch mob needed Bryan.

My first instrument was piano. My first musical love was jazz and classical. It was Jerry Douglas and that more sophisticated style and genre of player that opened my mind to rezo's and bluegrass at all. This has nothing to do with pedal steel. I just so happen to like having a non slanted interval smaller than a minor 3rd somewhere in my tuning. I agree that the familiar overtones with the G tuning, and the wonderful idiomatic approach that comes along with it is a beautiful thing for bluegrass! I'll just let somebody else take that road. Bluegrass is a legitimate bag that requires as much time and commitment as any other. It's just not my bag. I'm just trying to follow my own muse wherever it takes me.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Rick, I had the same problem with Dobro pickups until I tried a GHS round hole mic.
It is amazing, great natural tone and no feedback. Costs about $125.00 I think. I believe I paid $110.00 or so with a little discount at the local music store where I work in their recording studio. It attaches to the guitar with a elastic strap which attaches a flat block and the microphone velcros to the block. I run from the mic to a stomp box tuner then to a RV3 then into a high Z input in the house. If it is low Z I use a transformer. The stop box tuner serves and a on and off switch to shut off the mic when I need to turn it off. It is the perfect setup and sounds absolutely great. I am sorry I am not a GHS dealer. It is a wonderful little mic.
Jerry

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

Howard -
My tuning is (low to high) EGBDEGBD. From this forum, earlier this year, I requested help with a copedant based on that specified tuning. The suggestions were variations on conventional C6 pedal changes. As I understand it, my changes are basically pedals 5, 6, and 7.
P5 lowers the both D's to C#, and raises the 7th string G t A.
P6 raises the 2nd string B to C and lowers the 6th string B to Bb.
P7 raises the 3rd string G to A, and raises the 4th string E to F#.
So far, when I'm doing major sounding music, I simply use P6 with strings 2, 3 and 4 to give me a IV chord, and P7 with strings 3, 4, and 5 to give me a V chord. I've not found a use for P5 yet.
I believe that what I am doing can generally be categorized as using the pedals to provide a different tuning. I often use a pedal to give me an inversion of a chord at a certain point on the fretboard, and then I play around at that point in a non-pedal fashion.
By the way, your example of Gary Morse was a good example. I have the CD and I love it. And it does sound to me like a steeler playing a dobro. This CD, combined with Mike Auldridge's "8 String Swing" album, caused me to choose the tuning I did for my 8 string pedal steel.
Now to Rick - my 1st instrument was also classical piano. I don't think that piano "colours" one's way of addressing a string instrument. However, I DO believe that the string instrument that a player first becomes good at, will forever make its imprint known on any subsequent string instruments attempted.

Bryan Bradfield http://www.members.shaw.ca/DirtyHatBand/dirty_hat_band.htm

[This message was edited by Bryan Bradfield on 22 November 2003 at 09:16 AM.]

[This message was edited by Bryan Bradfield on 22 November 2003 at 09:21 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Well Bryan if that's true, I'm sure I'll like your PSG playing! i.e. your roots will dictate not depending too much on, and over using the pedals.

D Schubert · From: Columbia, MO, USA

Bernie, the real basic skills -- how to use picks, how to hold and slant a bar -- translate very well. But from somebody who plays both, PSG and Dobro are two different animals, and require different mindsets -- especially if you're going to play bluegrass Dobro.

To fit in with a bluegrass crowd, you will find that heavy strings and hard pickin' are a must. You'll have to play at least twice as hard to be heard in an all-acoustic group. It's more physical. Much of the bluegrass vocabulary requires hammer-ons and pull-offs, so you'll want a Stevens or Scheerhorn bar with grooves down the sides to facilitate those moves, not your old round bar. You will have to deal with a strap and learn to play standing up. More sliding, more slanting, more 7ths, almost no 6ths at all, more movin' the bar around. Playing rhythm chops like a mandolin. A steeler that won't make these adjustments will be a "lost ball in the tall weeds" as Jimmy Martin sings it. Just my 2 cents worth...

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

I'm going to temper D. Schubert's comments slightly. I DO agree that bluegrass dobro is a different animal altogether; however, Bernie didn't refer to bluegrass in his question. My prior comments have all suggested that an instrumentalist should take up a new instrument, and use past experience as his or her guidelines.
Another example of this line of thought is the great Tommy Tedesco, the most recorded studio musician in history, who had just about every string instrument in his arsenal - and they were all tuned to standard guitar tuning.
A comment back to Rick - you seem more in tune with me than I had anticipated. As a dobroist, I do my best to avoid or minimize bar vibrato, and broad slides from one note to another. The reason for this is that I am trying to avoid the sounds which I believe are characteristic of "most dobro playing". In other words, I don't want to over-use the standard licks and sounds. I suspect that as I grow into the pedal steel, I will avoid the over-use of pedals, as I hear it, just as you suggested.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

While this post may not relate directly to the author's intent, there are two classic albums that have been recorded that feature the Dobro AND the pedal steel guitar.

The first one is an old Starday album (I do not recall its name) featuring Buddy Emmons and Shot Jackson. Many great duets on this one as you are taken from the world of Dobro to the early world of the PSG, througout most of the songs.

Then they recorded a second album called "two Aces Back Together Again" a number of years later. It is a more modern recording still featuring classic Dobro; but with the ultra smooth Pedal Steel guitar of Buddy as they trade back and forth between the two worlds.

If you have never heard these albums it just might be a treat for you. Sadly, I have NO idea where one might obtain either or both of these classics. They are very old. And I imagine very rare.

But someone might know. And I suspect it will be some very happy listening if you can get a hold of them

carl

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I have a copy of Two Aces back together (or whatever the title is). I can't remember where I got it though. Since I dealt a lot with Scotty's, it might be from there.

Forgot to mention that this is a CD.

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 22 November 2003 at 06:09 PM.]

Bernie Straub · From: Folly Beach, South Carolina, USA

These responsed have been a terrific help. Thanks Rick,Michael, Bryan, Howard, and Carl and "D"! As you already know, this forum is really powerful. All this talent and experience available at the touch of a button. Thanks again, guys. I'm now ever more excited than ever about trying something new.

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Last year I heard the nicest dobro player I'd ever heard. His tone was huge and lush, and the projection he got from the bandstand (which seems a common problem with the instrument)was really strong.
He was playing with a bluegrass band from NY, I think they were called The Gibson Brothers, and his name was Junior Barber.
Wow.
-John

Pat Dawson · From: Chesapeake Beach, Maryland, USA

When I heard Dierks Bentley's hit "What Was I Thinkin", I wanted to know more about the dobro. After a little internet research I found out the player on the tune was Gary Morse. That took me right back to the forum where I ordered the CD Howard mentioned. Not only a great player but I got some classic western swing tunes too. I want to learn to play it also, Bernie. I'm going to the "no peddlers" section for Q&A. As far as adapting dobro to the PSG I think it has some advantages such as not carrying an extra instrument, playing a tune like Toby Keith's "I Love This Bar" where it's mostly PSG with one dobro verse, and the problems of miking the dobro. Saying that then, is the Match-bro or Super-bro a worthwhile investment and can you still get them? I only see them used (which is fine for me). Do you play dobro parts on the C6 or E9? Thanks. I love this place.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Pat, quite respectfully, the player on Dierks Bentley's "What Was I Think'n" was Randy Kours. Gary Morse does play live with Dierks. I know this because I had to learn "What Was I Think'n" on dobro for my band. It was pretty tough at first. The song is in F and Randy tuned his dobro down one full step in the recording. I still have to cheat the banjo roll at the end.
I do agree that even though most steel players posess the skill necessary to play the dobro, the mind set is different. Skill wise, I find playing dobro no where's near the challenge of pedal steel, but then again I'm not playing bluegrass and comparitively, I am not a great dobro player.

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Cool topic, I have been bringing my Beard to every session lately, just in case the producer/songwriter doesn't want steel on every song, I can say, hey what about some of this instead? (picks a few things on the hound dog). Next thing I know I've got a few Neumanns aimed at me!

I love playing resonator in the G-B-D-G-B-D tuning and really enjoy the immediacy of it. Sometimes it's fun to just sit on the couch and play along with some record figuring out fills, solos in keys other than GM, CM and DM. Quite a different skill, I think in some respects tougher than PSG; slants on the dobro are tough friends, might as well ignore the frets, it seems sometimes. Have to pick about twice as hard,too but that has actually helped me with my PSG playing, as I had a habit of playing too timidly. Playing dobro has helped me get over that. Just my 1 1/4 cents for today.

Pat Dawson · From: Chesapeake Beach, Maryland, USA

Kevin, thanks for setting me straight. Though I have played bass guitar in bands for 30 years, I am fairly new to the PSG (less than 3 years). When my band asked me to cover the dobro on the Dierks tune with my PSG and I finally stopped laughing, I had to let the guitar player fake something in its place for now while I find a place to hide. Your insight as to the tuning down is interesting. I borrowed a cheap round neck dobro to try to get a feel for the thinking involved on dobro, but it's going to take time and practice, practice, practice.

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