Pedal / non pedal

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

An interesting quote by fellow L.A. steeler Mike Perlowin:

"I see the pedal and non pedal steel guitars as different instruments, each capable of doing things the other cannot."

It's pretty obvious how a pedal steel can do things a non-pedal steel can't.

I'd like to hear folks talk about the things a non-pedal steel can do that a pedal steel can't. (MUSICALLY speaking

)

Thanks,

-GV

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 07 November 2003 at 12:00 PM.]

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

1. fit in an overhead compartment.

2. allow you to feed your family with the cost savings.

3. make you learn more slants.

4. allow you to post on "no pedllers" guilt free.

5. enable you to sound authentically hawiian

Terry

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Lloyd Green + Buddy Emmons (among others) uses "non pedal" slants even though there are readily available levers or pedals...

...Because the sound is different. Try doing something with your knee lever (on the E9, with the 4th string raise or lower, for example), then do the same thing with a slant- not so subtle a difference, really, when you really focus on how they sound and interact...Buddy says you get different overtones.

So, it's not what the instrument can do as much as what the player can do. Jerry Byrd was never limited by not having pedals, ever...then again, he wasn't trying to play 6 note altered jazz chords...

Lastly, the tone of a pedal steel is just different from a non pedal.

[This message was edited by John McGann on 07 November 2003 at 01:22 PM.]

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

...more easily stand up and play. I like to play pedal; but I really hate to sit and play.

Most piano players (electric) even stand while playing.

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Good points folks. But you can use slants on a PSG if you want. That's not a limitation of the PSG.

(Weight, playing standing or sitting, cost, etc. are not MUSICAL concerns.)

John said:

"Lastly, the tone of a pedal steel is just different from a non pedal."

This is the kind of thing I'm interested in hearing about. Can this tone difference be defined? What are the reasons for the tone difference?

Are there other arguments that support Mike Perlowin's statement above besides the tone issue John brought up?

Why can't I just leave my pedals & levers alone and approach my PSG as two 10 string lap steel necks? How is that MUSICALLY different than having two ten string lap steels?

-GV

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

When I play lap steel it semms like I concentrate more on the "music" and less on the "mechanics".
Erv

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Erv Niehaus
Member
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
posted 07 November 2003 02:47 PM profile send email edit
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When I play lap steel it semms like I concentrate more on the "music" and less on the "mechanics".
Erv

Erv couldnt have said it better,,one thing I have learned and that is Erv cn teach me a thing or two,,way to go Irv.

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Erv that is an interesting observation. But that would be a limitation of the player, not the instrument, right?

In other words: If a pedal player had enough discipline, why couldn't he or she just ignore the pedals / levers and learn to do everything a lap steeler could do?

To restate the question: MUSICALLY speaking, what can a lap steel do that a PSG cannot do? Bear in mind that the question is focusing on the INSTRUMENT, rather than the players approach, mindset or technique.

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 07 November 2003 at 03:13 PM.]

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 07 November 2003 at 03:19 PM.]

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Greg
I know this question is addressed to Erv,but
if you think about your question to Erv..which is.....To restate the question: MUSICALLY speaking, what can a lap steel do that a PSG cannot do?

My reply to your question is simply this,the non pedal players through the limitations of chord progressions etc and pedals have learned to substitute chords and their individual playing styles are recognizable whereas most pedal players I hear with a few exceptions all sound the same. Why?? because
the instrument has been standarized and tunings and pedals and knee's give the pedal
player all he or most that he needs, but in the interim,it takes away the orginal style of players by making it all to mechanical.

One could identify Boggs,,Murphey, Speedy Remington, Wiggins,Helms, McAuliffe..how many
pedal players can be distinguished outside of Buddy,John Hughey,Lloyd Green,??. and lets
not forget the most well known stylist Jerry
Byrd. Thats the way I see it.

Pedals are necessary I know,but they also take away the individualality of a player and it becomes difficult to distinguish one player from the other now a days.

I'm with Erv on this and I think those non pedal players most now gone would agree.

Tom Morrel does as much or more with no pedals than many do with 10 pedals and knee levers coming out of their armpits.

Thats my opinion . Bottom Line to the question..What can a lap steel do that a PSG cannot do...Orginality without sounding like everyone else or at least trying to and many fail..however I have to admit its good for the steel guitar business,,everyone wants that certain knee lever or pedal change.

It was not that way back when,it came the hard way..those that played non pedal steel earned it the hard way and it paid off. This
is just one mans opinion as I play both PSG and non pedal and find non pedal being more interesting and creative even after all the years I have been playing. edited to answer another question you posed...

INSTRUMENT??....Can you get the effects on a pedal steel that you can on a non pedal steel??
a bit old fashioned I know,but when have you heard a pedal player doing crash bar effects somewhat like Speedy and Boggs?

The solid body Fender steels have more bottom end with 8 strings per say and more bite than any pedal guitars I have played.
I have played on many, but when it comes to projection and dynamics give me a FENDER or something comparable. Ten string pedal steels have that low end I agree but overall
I feel that non pedal has many advantages over the PSG for the reasons above.

Thanks for giving me to opportunity to express myself.

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 07 November 2003 at 07:36 PM.]

Walter Jones · From: Athens, Ohio USA

A very interesting topic, all I will add is if you ever get the chance to see and hear Billy Robinson do his demo on his Derby 10 string lap steel of things you can't play on a lap steel ,do not miss it. With the slants, and 2-3 finger string pulls behind the bar ,if you had your back to him I doubt if many could tell it was a lap steel. I also remember one review of a CD that Billy had the tune, Little Rock Getaway, and the reviewer said something like , "much to liberal use of pedals". At least I think that is correct as best I can remember it. I know when we were discussing it Billy sure got a laugh out of it.

Alvin Sydnor · From: Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA

Jody, you did it again.You always say exactely what I wanted to say.

Will you be my press agent?
Keep on pikin
Alvin

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Thank you Alvin

BUT,,maybe to you "I did it again" but on the other topics, people feel different and if they had one wish it would be that I go away. I bomb out many times,this may very well follow that pattern.

Thank you for your kind words,and I would be happy to be your press agent

If Fender produced what they did years ago,many people would be amazed at the amount
of non pedal guitars would be sold.

The most suprised would be Fender

Thanks again.

Alvin Sydnor · From: Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA

Jody, you havent bombed yet. I remember some years ago "Take it away Leon" and I were talking and Leon told me about the time that Leo Fender spent with him discussing steel guitars. Leo was always interested in the players point of view and it paid off in the guitars he made.
Keep up the good work Jody and
Keep on pikin

Alvin

Rich Weiss · From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA

Hi Greg. I feel like the lap steel just has a different sound. Maybe it's the pickups.

[This message was edited by Rich Weiss on 08 November 2003 at 02:17 PM.]

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Rich Weiss
Member
From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA
posted 08 November 2003 01:46 PM profile send email edit
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Hi Greg. I feel like the lap steel just has a different sound. Maybe it's the pickups.

Rich, add a solid piece of ash that is built
like a Tank and thats the difference.

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

The wider string spacing on non-pedal steels allows for bar slants on adjacent strings, which is nearly impossible on a 10 string pedal steel guitar. This accounts for a huge musical difference.

Consider this:

On your 10 string pedal steel guitar, E9 tuning, put your bar on any fret and pick strings 5 & 6 together and step on pedals A&B. You know the sound... you've heard it a million times. String 6 goes up a half tone (G# to A) and string 5 goes up a whole tone (B to C#). Now try to duplicate this move on your pedal steel guitar using a bar slant only (no pedals). It's possible, but it's not easy with adjacent strings. You need to slant severely, and the sound produced is "raspy". The string spacing is pretty tight on a 10 string PSG. On lap steel... not a problem. Jerry Byrd often played slants on adjacent strings, as described above, and it sounded as smooth as butter. In some JB songs I could swear he's playing A&B pedals. He's playing the changes, without pedals. Some would argue that such slants sound smoother/better than pedals, and they allow the player to add a smooth vibrato throughout the slant, in a way that might not be possible when pedals are making the change. So this ease of slanting adjacent strings would account for a big musical difference in my opinion.

Slanting on strings that are Not next to each other on pedal steel is obviously not a problem. But slants on pedal steel just don't sound the same as on lap steel, because of the tonal differences. Slants "sing out" more on non-pedal steel.

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My Site - Instruction | Doug's Free Tab | Steels and Accessories

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 08 November 2003 at 02:49 PM.]

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

A well-known player once told me that he enjoyed recording with lap steel because it has more b@llS than pedal steel! Those were his words... not mine. Lap steel sure does have a direct "in your face" sound. I like that.

I'm no expert in things mechanical, but maybe something is lost, tonally, in all the mechanisms of the pedal steel guitar? Lap steel is just a hunk of wood with a pickup. On pedal steels, the strings do not attach to the body (to the wood) as directly as with lap steel. Maybe some tones are lost in all the hardware? Pedal steels have more sustain and low end, but why does lap steel cut in such a direct way... often more than pedal steel? It must be more than just the pickup ??

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My Site - Instruction | Doug's Free Tab | Steels and Accessories

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 08 November 2003 at 03:07 PM.]

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

if someone could play a lap steel the way Jerry Douglas plays Dobro I don`t see any reasons for that person to have any pedals at all.I don`t think that non pedal steel is inferior to pedal steel in any way.If you`re good you`re good,pedals or not.

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[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 08 November 2003 at 06:31 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

IMHO, non-pedal steel is way harder to "master" than pedal steel.

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

To Pete Burak

Pete I read your comment and appreciated your thoughts. Is your theory based on the fact that non pedal guitar has mutilple tunings and the player has to lay out a pattern of chord substitutes whereas the pedal guitar has the chord formation right in place by activating a pedal and or a knee
lever? I realize this is a way out question,
but I am trying to prove a point here without upsetting anyone.

I have found over the years before pedals that I had to make substitutions in order to play a part of a chord,,example a C9th chord
C E G Bb D,I would have to play a G minor chord in a pattern which would blend in with a C major chord and play against the G minor
chord by alternating with the major 1 3 5.

On a pedal guitar,its a piece of cake,all I do is use a pedal and bingo.

I do however gain the technique associated with playing parts of the chord but the end result is that the chord or chords have a substitute which adds color moreso than just flat out pressing a pedal.

For ballads and steel guitar such as as John Hughey as an example plays,I beleive that the sound and moving notes do have a pretty effect that cant be duplicated without a pedal guitar.

There's no use fooling myself pedal guitars are here to stay and rightfully so.

I firmly believe that non pedal players from day one such as Buddy and John H. and a few others have the advantage as being non pedal players for years before pedals and they have what I refer to as the "Roots" of steel playing and that is what makes them so great.

My own personal opinion and I may get shot for saying this, But I think everyone should have non pedal backround regardless of when they started playing steel guitar.

I have seen a few players where a pedal snapped and they were lost and had they had
non pedal experience they could have retuned
the neck in question and go on with the show.

These comments are only my opinion and I may be all wet. But to sum up your comments,,yes
I believe non pedal guitar is much more difficult to master than pedal guitar.

There are many hidden tricks playing a non pedal guitar but the player has to experiment
and look for them, but on a pedal guitar,everything is right there at your feet
but it just aint the same.Its a lazy day

Dont you pedal players get upset with my opinions, I have the utmost respect for pedal players,,I am one myself,but if I have
a choice and I do..I would do non pedal.

Thanks for letting me ramble.Just that it has always worked well for me. edited to add
I may be a corn ball,,but I have never forgotten my "Roots" and without "Roots" a tree cant flourish/

Thanks again for letting me jibber jabber.
Thats what happens when age sets in

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 08 November 2003 at 08:21 PM.]

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Doug writes

it has more b@llS than pedal steel! Doug you said it I didnt

how true.

David Doggett · Posted 8 Nov 2003 9:09 pm

Sure Jerry Douglas plays great. But, in the photo from the concert CD I have, he has 4 or 5 Dobros on stage with him. Non-pedal electric steels were up to 4 necks when pedal steel came in. Pedal steel was a solution to that problem. But, like Mike says, it is a very different instrument, with a different tone, different playing technique and style, different sounding harmony, and consequently different musical thinking. Alto sax and tenor - same instrument, different size. Piano and electric keyboard, same instrument, different tone. Mandolin and guitar - different instruments. Non-pedal and pedal steel - different instruments.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Non-Pedal Steels give a greater variety of string-lengths (scale-lengths) which gives different tones to basically the same type instrument. I built one in 1960, (a short-scale 22 1/2”) PSG and I believe Fender 800's & 2000's were 23” scales, but; I never heard of another PSG under the Sho-Bud's 24” scale! A shorter Scale definately creates a different sound for either PSG or Non-Pedal! This factor can also make the technique of slants sound different or the same on either style of instrument. I'm sure glad that I learned on non-pedal first, and still play both styles, although I prefer non-pedal more each day!

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“Big John” {(<< Uh~
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

David
The words you speak are true and make much sense. Its whatever you hear and prefer that
makes the difference.

Thanks for your make sense comments.

I remember being at the Ozark Jubilee years back when Bill Wimberly's band had Grady Martin and Curley Chalker on 4 neck Fender steel. Curley burned that quad like I have never heard before.

I have admired Curley all of my life and his
playing the non pedal steel was GREAT as the day he went to pedal steel.

It proves two things..If you got it you got it..If you dont got it,you dont got it.

The word is Talent.

Thanks for your comments.

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