P/P or all pull...tone..that is!

Junior Knight · From: Eustace Texas..paddle faster..I hear Banjos...

I know this is an on going thing...but here goes!
I have listened to a lot of people,I have watched this forum get real hot because of this topic...TONE...and I am sure that I will get flamed for this but thats ok.
My 2 cents;
The tone perfect is whatever makes the PLAYER
happy! If its a Fender, P/P or all pull, if the player is happy...thats the way to go.
Some all pull guitars get closer than others to the P/P sound,but lets face it...if you want that P/P sound get a P/P!! Thats the ONLY way to get it! All this GARBAGE about tone ...to me is just that...GARBAGE.
OK...let the flames begin. Thanks, Junior.

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Bb is where it's at!

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Junior, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm fascinated with all of the posts and interest about who played what at the convention and comparing that to tone, when it's so obviously in the hands of the players. I certainly understand that the tone of the guitars themselves inspires a player, some love PP, some classic ShowBud, etc. etc. but a truly great player pulls truly great tone from nearly anything he plays. How are you liking your new axe?

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C'mon by and visit!- www.markvanallen.com
My Bands: Sugarland Kate and the Retreads Kecia Garland Band Shane Bridges Band Dell Conner Blues Band

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Tone shmone!!!!!

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

I know everybody always says tone is in the
hands of the player....and I agree BUT if
you take a great player & stick him on two
different kinds of steels...he's gonna sound different as well!

[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 14 September 2003 at 12:27 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Thank you, Kevin.

Leon Roberts · From: Tallahassee,FL USA

Junior, I will give you a big "AMEN" on that. Tell it like it is Brother Knight!

john buffington · From: Owasso OK - USA

What Junior said!!!!!!!!!
My .02 worth!
Tone is what the Good Lord puts in each of us. To me, we have a choice: we can enjoy what He has given us or sit back and wish we sounded like someone else. Flames on the way I'm sure!

John Buffington

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

I just thought of this:

Does an Emmons push/pull have a better tone when it's pushing, or when it's pulling. If it happens to be when it's pushing, maybe we should be investigating the possibility of an all push guitar.

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Jr, My brother from another Mother...

Tone is in the ears of the beholder, Opinions on tone are like Butts, everybody's got one , some bigger than others !!!!!!

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DavidWright.us

Peavey-2000-PX-300

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Double shmone!!!!

Eddie Thomas · From: Macon,Ga.,USA

Hello, I've observed this topic several times in the past 5 years, but I can give you a classic example. Get your hands on some old Conway Twitty records and listen to John Hughey. Get some old Connie Smith records and listen to Weldon Myrick. Now get something current by John or Weldon, and listen to the difference. If tone is solely in the hands, why is there so much difference in their sound then as compared to now. I own a P/P and a Legrande, I can hear the difference.

ebb · From: nj

quote:
Buddy Emmons
Member
From: Hermitage, TN USA
posted 10 September 2003 01:31 PM profile edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the Sierra ranks at the top of the list for C6th tone. Also, I recorded several Clinton Gregory sessions including the song, "If It Weren't for Country Music," and the bite on the intro was as Nashville inclined as you'd ever want to hear. If I hadn't had a problem breaking the G# on my guitar I might have kept it. I presently own a Sierra single 12 devoted to the C6th tuning only and the tone is superb

Nick Reed · From: Russellville, KY USA

Junior,
Why even bring it up a subject like this. It's just gonna get your dander up, and I personally treasure your friendship too much to do that. Push-Pull or All-Pull, I don't sound good on either and probably never will. Junior, you're an extremely talented musician and one of my favorite Steel players. Usually the people like me who comment about tone aren't nearly as qualified to talk about it as you are.
I do know that Jaydee's '68 P/P sure was a honkin machine in the room at St. Louis beside the other new guitars. And notice, this time I didn't mention other brandnames. Just take it with a grain of salt. . .when a subject like this gets posted, it's usually because the writer is just bored and wants to stir up some tempers. Don't let it bother you this time, lifes too short. Love you Man - You're the Best!

Nick

Ricky Littleton · From: Steely-Eyed Missile Man from Cocoa Beach, Florida USA

Ok, here goes:

The way I see it, people tend to grow into a mold of their choosing. AS a biker for many years, it's no different. I have Harley buddies that won't ride anything but pre-AMF bikes, many of those are divided about the engine they want - some take the old Panhead, some the Knuckle, and then theres the Shovelhead folks. Most of them give me a ration of s#$% about riding my Evolution, but when it comes down to it, they are all Harleys!

Same goes for steels. Some people are unwaveringly devoted to the "retro" gear like the P/P, there's still alot of Fender people, and the older MSA's have their following.

Like David Wright said, "tone is in the ear of the beholder..."

Fender, Sho-Bud, P/P Emmons, MSA, ZB, BMI, Carter, Zum, Marrs, Remington, blah-blah-blah! They're all steels and all make the music.

Good thing we have the diversity; just think if we all had that one wish to play EXACTLY how we wanted? WE would all sound probably the same.

Waylon summed it up in a song back in the 80's by saying "...if we all sang like we wanted, we'd all sang like George Jones..."

Just my $0.02 worth.

BTW - I've had 2 black Emmons, A P/P and my current LeGrande and NEITHER one of them played "Touch My Heart" just right, no matter how many times I played my Ray Price CD's for them...

I'm all through now!

Ricky...

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah

[This message was edited by Ricky Littleton on 15 September 2003 at 02:47 AM.]

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

Hi Jr. Right as rain. During this last show in St. Louis, I was very pleased to walk by the demo room when David and you were playing. The sound coming from both your guitars was good. And the "quality" of the sound when David was playing remended me so much of the smooth, pretty music that Curly Chalker gave us, I was definetely pleased to hear this again. You sounded great too, but this "beholder" loves to behold that "pretty music" Curly gave us..Thanks to you both. Keep up the good and pretty music....that is where it's at anyway. Pretty music will make most beholders stop and listen and enjoy, regardless of the equipment used..."Tone" is in your pocket, just reach in, close your hand, bring it out of you pocket, open it up and there it is - just waiting to pick the "pretty music".

Bill Stafford

Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

well,WELL,
I believe that tone is made up of many
deferant things.
#1.guitar
#2.neck,alum. or wood
#3.the pick up
#4.the amp sorce
$5. the speaker
#6.the speaker cabinet
#7.the room
#8.the players wright hand
And so on,to me no one thing makes a tone,
just my 2 cents worth.
Please forgive my spelling,its early
---------------------------------------------
Fred Justice,
SWSGA
PS,David,stop talking about my big butt.

[This message was edited by Fred Justice on 15 September 2003 at 05:37 AM.]

[This message was edited by Fred Justice on 15 September 2003 at 05:45 AM.]

Paul Wade · From: mundelein,ill

hi j.k,
what ever makes you the player" happy.

PAUL WADE

msa d-10
evans amp

P.S HEY,J.K i like your tone on your older msa u-12

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

There was a young man from Nantucket

Whose steel sounded sweet as he plucked it

You'll ever get tone

As this Forum has shown

From an all-pull guitar, so *#%& it!

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Chick Donner · From: North Ridgeville, OH USA

Way to go, Junior. I happen to agree with you, in spite of the fact that I own and play 2 PP d12's. I also have an old 11-10 Zane Beck that gets an absolutely gorgeous tone. I DO think the "modern" guitars have a sound (and tone) a little 'thinner' than many of the old ones; however, I think that has something to do with guitar weight. AND, I don't think it matters because of the smorgasboad of pickups out there to compensate for design factors (like the XR16).

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Eddie Thomas said: "Get your hands on some old Conway Twitty records and listen to John Hughey. Get some old Connie Smith records and listen to Weldon Myrick. Now get something current by John or Weldon, and listen to the difference. If tone is solely in the hands, why is there so much difference in their sound then as compared to now. I own a P/P and a Legrande, I can hear the difference."

Players can tell the difference in the tone. It may not be solely in the hands, but if the hands aren't happening, who cares if its a push/pull or a dumptruck... My opinion: if what John or Weldon or Junior plays now makes them happy, that's good enough for me- same with Maurice Anderson- I don't think he'd "sound better with a push pull". At at certain point it's the MUSICIAN that matters, much more than the instrument. If tone was a black and white issue, everyone would play "the best sounding axe", right? It's just not as simple as black and white.

One good reason John Hughey's recorded tone is different today is that recording techniques are way different than they were in 1965! Analog recording sounds different than digital. Mastering to vinyl is different than mastering to CD. (Of course, everyone covets the vintage analog gear today, just the same as the old p/p steels!)

And, what were they playing through in '65- Twin Reverbs, maybe? Well, the same exact Twin would sound different 50 years down the road too. How's about strings, bars and picks?

At some point (and this may be Junior's point) it's more about "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar" (to quote Frank Zappa).

To me, these guys played beautifully then and play beautifully today. I have a feeling John Hughey could play a rusty 1965 Volkswagen Beetle and make it sound great!

Buck Dilly · From: Branchville, NJ, USA * R.I.P.

Clearly I have my own preference, but that aside, I also have an opinion. Compare the tone of pedal steel, regardless of type, with the tone of any other instrument. When doing this I realize that there are really only slight differences between steels. These differences are heard to us, and to us only. Frankly, I have heard bad producers make good players with good axes sound like crap. (I refuse to give examples.) So- how much difference is there, really, between steels, amps, preamp, volpeds, etc.; other than to the individual player. I practice and play more on my guitar because I like the tone. That is probably all that matters.

[This message was edited by Buck Dilly on 15 September 2003 at 09:44 AM.]

Buck Grantham R.I.P. · From: Denham Springs, LA. USA

I think a lot of us mistake the difference between "expression and tone" . A player that puts more feeling in his playing is often said to have a great tone. That's why I think people say it's in your hands. I had afriend once that bought a cheap lead guitar to learn how to play . He learned how but the sound of that guitar was the worst I ever heard. Finally after six or seven years he went out and bought a real beautiful ,great sounding guitar ,and don't you know it only took him about two weeks of knob twisting before he got that new guitar to sound just like the horrible sounding cheap one. So the moral of this story is " You are what you sound like". If you sound bad ,start thinking about changing your ways. Junior never played a bad sound in his life. Maybe he plays horrible and because he's my friend ,I just can't hear it. Go figure ???????

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

My own taste in tone has changed over the years. Perhaps John Hughey's has, too.

I had a good sound 25 years ago, and I have a good sound today, but they are different sounds. I like the sound I got 25 years ago (from a p/p, by the way), but it's not the sound that I want in 2003. Been there, done that.

I agree with Junior.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Tone DOES matter. Some guitars and amps DO sound better than other guitars and amps. If you were at the convention you could hear that. Different guitars sound different from eachother. Some sound radically different. Some have poor string separation. To ignore that is just ignorance.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

There is nothing more important that playing musically and appropriately. All the tone in the world won't rescue you if you can't play notes that sound both 'good' and 'right'. I've found that players who obsess over 'tone' are people who need to spend more time developing their note choice and technical skills and less time with the oscilloscope analyzing how many microcents sharp they are or looking for an amplifier that creates some magic that makes up for other inadequacies.

I've said it a million times. You can either play or you can't. If you can and have something to say to people musically, I'll listen to you no matter what guitar, amp, and doodads you choose.

I play what sounds good to me -- for ONE REASON: I play better if I'm pleased with what's coming out of my amp. Other than that, I'm fully aware that everyone's ears are different and they might not be LOOKING for the same thing I am, tone-wise.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

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