Monitoring amp question

JD McIntyre · From: Lonoke, Arkansas, USA

This has happened to me several times in the past few years and I can’t get the soundman or anyone else to give me a good answer as to what is happening.
You’re sitting in a club using only your amp to monitor your steel with no other monitors and you’re sitting almost on top of your amp, with it patched to the soundboard, and all of a sudden you can’t hear your amp anymore but you can hear your guitar from what seems like it is coming back from about the middle of the audience. Can anyone tell me what the problem could be and a possible solution?

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

What kind of setup are you using? What kind of board are you going into?

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Years ago I used to run a line out from a Session 500.For some reason, every once in awhile the speaker would stop working and I'd only hear myself through the house system.Could this be your problem??...bb

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

What happens is; the volume that he has to put you at to fill the room....is way over-riding the volume that your hearing your amp at...>so you hear that volume out front in the room moreso.
I hate when that happens....and it's usually because I have to have my amp so close to me(In my Ear..ha) because of stage situation...>so my volume is not projecting from the stage like it should....and therefore the sound guy has to crank it...
.........Also this is usually the case when the sound guy has the Bass drum and Bass guitar just Cranked through the P.A....
Ricky

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

JD McIntyre · From: Lonoke, Arkansas, USA

Thanks Ricky for your help. I think you have answered the question about what is happening. Would you also agree that one solution to the problem would be to move my amp away from me, so that I can get louder and then the soundman can turn me down on the board. I received two ideas from my fellow band members. One was to turn up the volume control on my amp and the other was to shift my amp around so that I would be in a more direct path with the speaker. I call that total confusion. Also, there are five band members and only four monitors. Maybe, me having my own monitor would also be a solution.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Well those two ideas they gave you are not bad ones.
First of all; since you don't have a monitor...than you are not having to turn up your amp as loud as the rest of the band...because your not trying to hear yourself over the volume of a montitor> Like they are>; So that's why your stage volume is not loud.
Moving your amp further away from you...would help in projecting the sound moreso to you and that would equate to more volume off the stage; But I still believe you wouldn't have the kind of projection volume wise...because maybe you still don't want to hear yourself over the top of the rest of the band. So having a Monitor would help I belive...>than you can hear yourself mix with the band better...and if your volume is still low enough from your amp that the sound guy has to crank it...>have him turn you up in the monitor as much as you like, so that you don't hear the out front sound moreso than your on-stage sound.
Ricky

Michael Brebes · From: Northridge CA

Another phenomenon that could be happening is that the sound from the monitors could be reaching your ears at about the same level as your amp, and could be out of phase, causing a phase cancellation with the output of your amp. By moving your amplifier farther away from you, it should minimize the possibility of that happening in the low to mid frequencies.

JD McIntyre · From: Lonoke, Arkansas, USA

Help, Help, Any other ideas?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I think stage volume may be an issue. When we mic amps, I always like to have SOME (not much) of the steel IN THE MONITORS. If you're hearing your signal from the frontals bouncing off the back wall and then reflecting to you, that's not a good situation.

The most important thing to start with is to be sure you have a good mix on stage. You should be able to hear EVERYTHING in as close to the right mix as possible AND the frontal mix should reflect the stage mix. If this is not possible (stage is to spread out or other reasons like loud, egotistical guitar players

) you should have whatever instruments in the monitor mix that are needed to balance the sound so that what you're hearing is what the crowd is hearing. Also, stage volume is basically set by the drummer. Everyone else can turn up or down, but individual drummers vary a lot in what their average volume level is during a gig. Some can play everything soft and just prefer that. Some have to beat them skins within an inch of their life and so the band in general is louder.

Just my fix on it.

As an aside, I had an interesting experience last Sunday. The stage was enclosed on three sides -- like a room without a door. That is the WORST stage design I've ever seen (or heard). The bass player had to set up on my side of the stage, due to space restrictions, and THE BOTTOM END COMPLETELY DROPPED OUT OF MY STEEL WHENEVER HE WAS PLAYING. To top it off, he was also standing in front of my amp. Adding a little bit of steel to the monitors made a big difference in WHAT I HEARD. I have no clue what the audience heard.

This all points out the fact that we have to sound good (at least to ourselves) to play good. This includes the proper volume, relative to the rest of the band, AND the proper EQ. Soundmen love to mess with (and totally screw up) the EQ of the steel. I only know a couple who really know what they're listening for (and one of them is my best friend -- so I taught him right

)
I almost never have these problems in the studio.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Here is what is happening:

1. Take a pencil and an 8 X 11 sheet of paper. Lay the paper long ways in a vertical plane on a table.

2. Draw a line all the way across the page about 2 inches down from the top of the page.

3. Do the same thing 2 inches from the bottom of the page.

4. Write the following words above the line:

A. distortion

B. echo

C. feedback

D. pain

D. all other audible sound problems.

5. Write the following below the bottom line:

A. noise

B. unaudible

Now, take a look at the paper and picture your ear/brain scenario. The area between the two lines is the range of normal hearing perception in our ears/brains; that has not changed since we were created.

Also, since all music has dynamic range, IE, soft versus loud levels, it is important that the "mean" level be kept pretty much in the center of the page representing our ears. This way the softest levels will NOT fall in to the noise area; or worse unaudible area.

By the same token, it is important that the the loudest levels not extend into the area where distortion, echo, feedback, pain, etc occur.

For eons of time, this was the norm. Even when amplifiers came on the scene we followed this. However as one player decided to outdo the other player; only to have the first player then buy a louder amp, etc, etc, the "mean" volume has ever moved closer to that top line.

As a result ALL kinds of anamolies can and do occur in what we percieve as sound. But the worst thing is, we are going DEAF! In a word, the music we play is simply TOO loud. Our ears have not changed. But the levels have gotten so progressively louder that it is ludicrous. And we are pemanently damaging our ears.

Tinnitus (ringing in the ears) is the first sign you are going deaf, (sooner or later). When will we; as well as all musicians; wake up and stop this madness?

What hath man wrought,

carl

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