Rickenbacher: TONE control:

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Hello everybody.
As some of you may know I play various old Ricks, all with the 1.5" PU. All but the B7 have no Tone control. On two I even bypassed the volume control and wired direct.
But in order to keep my shrill highs a bit under control I want to build an outboard tone control. I mostly use my original Rick pre-war amps for home playing and when ever going out or scaring off my bad neighbor, I may use a 1952 Oahu ToneMaster or the 1966 BF Fender Twin (both Class AB). Now, these amps (the Rick´s versus the Oahu and Fender) a very diferent amps, not just for the first group being Class A but also by design of input impedance, I suspect.
So, the first question to you all is, should I build two different tone controls (one for each amp group) or not and in either case what value of pot and cap should be used. Secondly, is there any true sense in getting an expensive cap and if yes, which and from whom (where)?

I know, this sounds like it may belong into "Electronics" but I felt it to be so particular to our non pedal guitars...

Thanks! ... J-D

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Hi my dear friend JD.

As to the cap. Here is the scoop. THE most important consideration in quality respect caps; is its voltage rating. Now there is an irony when working with guitar tone circuits.

It is not hard at all to find caps with a voltage rating of 600V!!! The average voltage out of a PU is in microvolts and NO way is this even a smidgeon of a 600V cap's capabliity. So that should be the least of your worries.

Check the following guidelines and you should be ok:

1. Start with a 250K pot. That is what they used most of the time back then. If you want a gradual change in tone (not boowah), choose audio taper. If you want boowah, chose linear taper. (this is just the opposite from what most think--it has to do with the way our ears work!).

2. Start with a .02 cap. That is what thy used mostly at the time.

3. From this point consider the following:

A. If your pot does NOT do anyhing after a few degrees of travel, the value of the pot is too high OR the taper is incorrect OR both. So experiment here.

B. IF the pot is rolling off too many mids (as well as the highs), decrease the "mfd" value of the cap. And vice versa.

With the above guidelines, and a little experimentation, you should answer your own question; and attain what you desire.

Hope this helps. We miss you friend. Sure wish you and I could visit again like we did in Joliet. I really enjoyed that.

May Jesus richly bless you and yours always,

carl

Vernon Hester · From: Cayce,SC USA, R.I.P.

My Ricky has a 250 K Linear pot,.047 mfd cap.
Vern

Rick Dempster · From: Preston, Victoria, Australia

Carl;
Sounds like you might be the man to put this query to. I have a T8 Stringmaster and a T8 Custom. I bought the Custom after the S.master. The guy that owned it used to do the Speedy 'bombs' ("boo-wah" if you will)and it sounded great to me. It had a trebly bite all of it's own as well, which was quite different to the Stringmaster.
That was about twenty years ago. Now,in comparison with the Stringmaster, the 'bombs' on the Custom sound pathetic.I'm sure it's not just my faulty memory. I know the Stringmaster has a much fatter bottom end anyway, but the man at the guitar shop insisted I could get the same effect on the Custom by changing the cap. We tried a couple and it did improve, but it's still pretty hopeless in the 'explosions' department. Do you think this is something that changing the caps will achieve ultimately, and if so, what cap should I try next? (sorry I don't know what's in it now; I'm electronically inhibited)
Thanks.
Rick Dempster

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"Do you think this is something that changing the caps will achieve ultimately, and if so, what cap should I try next? (sorry I don't know what's in it now; I'm electronically inhibited)
Thanks.
Rick Dempster"

No I don't Rick. Caps are simply going to attenuate the highs on a linear scale (the higher the HZ the greater the attenuation) depending on where the pot is at any given instant.

The "timbre" of an instrument which is what most of us are hearing when we talk about "tone", is determined by the guitar. NO amount of "passsive" circuitry is going to change a Custom into a String Master; or any other guitar.

Good luck, and Go with Jesus; and all things will be good,

carl

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Tahnks Carl... made my day!

Still about the quality of these caps: So, a 600V cap is OK. Can that just be a RadioShack quality thing or is there realy something about "foil" caps (thick "sausage"-style with that waxy look).

Rick, your problem sounds like you PU is gone bad. Might be wire and connedtion oxydation, a bad pot or the PU shorting out?

Thanks to all! ... J-D.

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

If you are putting together something outboard of the guitar, like in a little "project box," you might consider including a rotary switch for selecting different cap values, thus different "roll off" frequencies. Even if you tend to settle on one value for a given axe, this can be a very handy and versatile little box.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"Can that just be a RadioShack quality thing or is there realy something about "foil" caps (thick "sausage"-style with that waxy look)."

Yes, just about ANY cap made in the last 5 or so years will be fine. The following is a little bit of trivia concerning caps in general.

A capacitor is one of two entities that made radio (and all subsequent "transmission") possible. The other is a coil. I will only discuss the capacitor. While it is a very simple device, its uses and applications are very wide. And without it, much of what we take for granted, would NOT be possible today.

A capacitor* is NOTHING but two extremely thin sheets of tinfoil separated by some kind of insulator and then rolled in to a cylinder. It is rolled in such a way that a connecting wire attached at one end ONLY touches one of those metal sheets and the other wire ONLY touches the other sheet.

Then the rolled up assembly is encased in some kind of material. That is all there is to it. However, there is a cancer that can cause ANY capacitor to fail. And that cancer is moisture! IF any moisture gets in, it can either short the two pieces of metal together; or in most cases create a "resistance" (called "leakage") between the two pieces of metal called "plates". When this happens, the cap is bad and depending upon its use, requires replacing.

The original moisture "barrier" was beeswax. The rolled up cylinder was encased in paper and then dipped into hot wax. When cooled the hardened wax resisted the entry of any moisture. But over time the wax would break down and of course it was not long before moisture entered in.

Incidently most of the moisture was due to heat generated when the circuit was on and then cooling condensed into moisture quickly when the unit was turned off.

Over the years, engineers created more "exotic" moisture fighters (along with insulating separaters), such as mylar or ceramic. And if the connection around the connecting wires did not crack the mylar or ceramic, their life was almost unlimited. But IF that area around the wires should crack EVEN a tiny amount, moisture will come in and we are back to "square one".

We were taught at RCA (when mylar caps first came into being) NOT to disturb or rebend the wires (next to the body) because of this. And that is "the rest of the story".

JD, if you or anyone else is totally confused by now, don't worry about it, I have been confused for over 60 yrs!!

God bless ya,

carl

* Note: the above is restricted to talking about NON "electrolytic" capacitors. Electrolytic caps are another animal entirely. They are NOT made as described. They are the same theoretically in how they work. But they are built nothing like a regular cap. In MOST applications, electrolytics are used as large storage devices called "filters". Great for removing hum, noise, etc.

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 01 August 2003 at 09:27 AM.]

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Thank to you both, Carl for your in depth explanation and Jack for a fine idea.

Well, Carl no, you didn't confuse me. The way I looked at a capacitor was that it works like a thinny rechargable battery... that's why they're used on the conversion circuity form AC to DC on our (tubes only?) amps, to smooth out th hack-saw signal after one side of the AC-sinus vave has been tipped over by the rectifier (right ???).
I don't see how they can afect tone however... but ohh well

Can anybody direct me to a scematic on how these things are suposed to be hooked (I know, SOLDERED) together?

Finally is distance from the instrument a problem? In other words does my out-board control have to be as close to the guitar as possible or can I design it to be hooked just like an efect pedal 5 or 6 feet away on the floor, about 4 foot before the amp?

Thanks! ... J-D.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

JD, have you considered the following options?

1. Onboard tone control: changing an existing volume control into a tone control. (A no-no on a collectible instrument, if you want to resell it.)

2. Outboard active tone control: a graphic or parametric EQ in stomp box format (like the BOSS GE-7) or a rack-mount unit. It would be much more versatile, act also as an impedance attenuator, and could be switched OFF, if desired.

3. A multi-effects unit. You could create (and store) different EQ settings for different guitars, amps, and musical styles.

4. A volume/tone pedal a la Fender.

5. A Hilton volume pedal. It has a tone control on the underside of the pedal.

6. If you have a passive volume pedal with two output jacks, you could take out one of the jacks and install your passive tone control there - no extra housing required and easily accessible.

A passive tone control in a little box on the floor would - for me - be the least desirable option. My preference would be a Hilton and/or a BOSS GE-7.

Rainer

------------------
Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Vielen Dank für die guten Vorschläge, Rainer.

Yes I have considered most (but one) of the options you presented.
The one that almost made it into reality was to replace the volume control with a tone circuit. The reason I decided against it, as you well guessed it, was that presently I own and play only vintage instruments. In order not to fight bad caps and scrachy pots it has become my policy to rewire all instruments direct, leaving all original parts "as is".
I am presently using the Boss Equalizer you mentioned and with good results, but I am not sure how far it affects my tone, being an active little preamp and solid state (shudder). To me, it does not make much sense to use 70 year old amps to have the authentic pure tube sound and then hook a solid state or even a ditigal unit in front of it. Tubish orthodox, I know

I don't need nor even want multiple settings... been there done that in my more pedal steelish days... rack units... programs... all just too time consuming, leading to too much play around with finally no satisfaction in turn leading to the buying of even more (newer) processors.
I want one tone that makes me happy and that's it. I might consider building a multiple cap control for tests and then I will settle for the one that grabs my heart.
Leaving (temporarily) the pedal steel, I also decided to force my right hand to do the "espression" part and put my volume pedal in a nice little box way down there under my bed... to be rediscovered later or by my heirs (these poor souls are anyways in for some ugly surprises). The swivel thing is alright for effect (boh-whah), but what I am trying to get is a fixed tone set.
The Hilton pedal is again one of these suspect things where even the awful word "digital" has been associated with... may good forbid,

imagine the implications!!

)
Your second last idea with the passive volume pedal with an added tone pot-cap setup is the one I had overlooked so far and that I may consider once I decide I want to dig out that pedal again. Thank you for it!

Great ideas... and one there for me! ...
still need a scematic: 1 pot/selector switch/a couple of caps.

Thanks! ... J-D.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Yo J-D------I'm way out of my league here but let me bring to your attention the fact that some spanish guitars---possibly some Gretch, possibly the Gibson BB King Lucille---sorry for being vague but that's what I am---have selectable tone circuits. Rather than pots with a taper they are rotary multi-position switches with each stop routing the signal thru a different cap/resistor/whatever. I think this may be the 'varitone' tone control. So in other words, the temporary experimental rig you are considering to test cap values is actually the end product in certain guitars. Presumably because the designers found this method more effective to achieve their sound goals than mere treble roll-off designs. Given the choice of variable or selectable values vs. an on/off tone filter, I can't imagine how you could not want some hands-on control.
FWIW

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Thanks Jon.
Hmm... so I by one of them BB King special eddition Gibson's and... Naw Jon, I think we gotta do better than that

We gunna built that thang and better than Gibson ever did, believe me

It's yet an other sunny day at the beach... J-D.

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