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Topic: To Twang or not to twang? |
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 2:22 pm |
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Recently I had a jazz guitar player who was unfamiliar with the steel come over to the house, and I played him some recordings of jazz players. Among the recordings I played was "Doug and Bucky" by Doug Jernigan and Bucky Pizzarelli.
The guy really liked what Doug was playing, but hated the sound of his instrument. he felt Doug's tone, which is exceptionally twangy on this album, was totally inappropriate for jazz.
I agree. I think there may be a place for twang in country music, but there are times and styles of music where it just doesn't fit. Playing the right notes isn't enough. It has to sound right. If the steel doesn't sound right because it's too twangy, it will not be accepted in jazz circles, no matter how well it's played.
What do you guys think?
[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 01 November 2002 at 02:24 PM.] |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 2:24 pm
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| I think you should have played him "Jazz by Jernigan". Then if he didn't like that, I'd give up. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 2:44 pm
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| Charlie Parker, John Coltrane and Ornette Coleman all have tone that is inappropriate by Conservatory standards. And by moldy jazz standards. I don't listen to such pronouncements. If I like it, I listen to it. If I don't, I don't. I most certainly don't suggest that a picker should shape his sound according to the fashion of the day. Your voice is your voice. |
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Peter Siegel
From:
Belmont, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 2:45 pm
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Let's see...
Toots Thieleman plays jazz harmonica. Too country? Stephane Grappelli plays jazz on the violin. Too classical? Eric Dolphy played jazz on bass clarinet. Too classical? Ralph Towner plays jazz on 12 string acoustic guitar. Too folky? John Mclaughlin plays jazz through a Marshall really loud. Too rock?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this guy ( I hesitate to call him a musician)is a closed minded moron.
-peter |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 2:50 pm
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Well, jazz guitar players seem to really like that "ES-350 with dead-strings" sound...they all seem to play that way. Still, I think Buddy's tone on Steel Guitar Jazz fit right in! I guess that you should try to play with a tone that's a compromise between what you like...and what they like. Hopefully, they'll come around, in time. 
But next time...you might let him hear Chalker's Big Hits On Big Steel, and see if that's more to his liking. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 3:24 pm
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| Quote: |
| I think you should have played him "Jazz by Jernigan". Then if he didn't like that, I'd give up. |
I think that album is incredible, but a lot of the "incredibleness" of that album is due to the amazing technique, tone, and fluidity of the playing, all things best appreciated by another steel player. Measured stictly on the basis of the jazz content, a lot of the improvisation on the album is probably more diatonic and not as complex as the kind of stuff that is played by the icons on sax, vibes, piano, etc. I certianly agree that it is a landmark CD for steel guitar jazz, a major work by arguably the best jazz steel guitarist on the planet, but I could see a jazz musician who is deep into some of the great players of traditional jazz feeling that it isn't interesting enough. All IMVHO.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 November 2002 at 03:32 PM.] |
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Greg Vincent
From:
Folsom, CA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 4:07 pm
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I recently tuned my Dobro to a 6th tuning, but it didn't seem to make much sense.
Kinda like playing blues on the harp.
I feel that the voice of the instrument you are playing should suit the genre of the music you are playing.
Is that a conformist attitude?
-GV
P.S. Now my Dobro's back in dumb-ol' G tuning -and we're both a lot happier.  [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 November 2002 at 04:08 PM.] [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 01 November 2002 at 04:09 PM.] |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 5:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| you might let him hear Chalker's Big Hits On Big Steel, and see if that's more to his liking. |
I played him Counterpoint, and he did like it. He liked both Curly's playing and tone.
I agree with this guy. I think Doug's tone on the album in question really is wrong for jazz. I think it detracts from the music and rather than saying that the steel is a great jazz instrument, it reinforces the stereotype of the steel being only appropriate for playing country. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 8:09 pm
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I've got to agree about the tone on that album. I was in the studio when it was done, and I wasn't crazy about it at the time (but I was a kid and wouldn't have said anything).
But I think the biggest problem with jazz on the pedal steel is the playing. I have played a bunch of the 'blue chip' pedal steel jazz recordings for the local jazz heavys, and nothing except Chuck Campbell's playing knocks them out on the jazz side. Now there are a number of jazz guys who love that E9th Emmons/Day/Lloyd Green stuff, so it's not a knock on the instrument.
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www.tyack.com
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Dr. Hugh Jeffreys
From:
Southaven, MS, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 8:33 pm
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| I've been on the jazz scene for many years--as a guitarist, steel guitarist, and composer/arranger. My cohorts have often told me that they were completely turned off by the USUSAL sound/tone of a steel guitar--that it is a stereotype, does not blend, and is only an entity in itself. The tone mentioned is easily recognized as high treble, many slurs (instead of actual picking), and a never-ending ring. Depending upon what instruments I'm playing with, I use a plastic bar and set my amp. to early decay so that it does not ring through the orchestra (and ruin the next phrase!) I usually set my steel differently for each instrument I blend with; it's a necessity. A friend of mine played guitar on tour with Henry Mancinni; he said that the above were the reasons he could not effectively use steel with his orchestra. For anyone who desires to go forward in the jazz direction, I highly recommend the Jamey Aebersold Jazz Seminar Series. He presents I,II, and level III. His requirements are 1. know all the standard jazz tunes (i.e., Tin Pan Alley types) by memory, and the appropriate chord substitutions and 2. be able to sight read. The seminars are held throughout the year and feature some great soloists. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 9:39 pm
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| Quote: |
| there are a number of jazz guys who love that E9th Emmons/Day/Lloyd Green stuff, so it's not a knock on the instrument |
Actually Dan, it is a knock on the instrument. It's saying that "we love the country stuff, but you're nowhere on jazz". IMO, the steel-playing community has a real problem in this regard. The steel guitar is a totally legitimate jazz instrument without a voice. There are no books on how to apply jazz to steel. There is a real dearth of jazz theoretical understanding by many of the players who actually want to play the stuff. There is no consistent view on the type of tone that should be used. Steel oughta be heard at jazz festivals, and it oughta be heard on jazz recordings as part of combos and orchestras. However, with a few exceptions, the only way it does get heard is at steel shows, or when the steel player produces the recording, or when the combo is really just a country group playing jazz. In their own way, steel shows are a crutch. They are an excuse to play jazz in front of an "easy" audience, who will appreciate the tone and dexterity of players, but are not truely critical jazz listeners. I certainly have no easy answers, but the first step is, as always, admitting that there is a problem. We need some of our greatest players, the icons of the industry who do actually play jazz and love it, to go out there and show what the steel community has. And if they fall flat on their face, then we gotta figure out how to make it better, and get out there again. We need courage and committment, which is much easier said then done. I'm not naming names, but if our icons and heros will not put it out there where it matters, if they are not willing to leave the friendly confines of Nashville and Austin, and go to the centers of jazz playing, trading licks with amazing vibes and horn players and pianists, or accompanying jazz singers who normally expect a piano or 6-string to support them, if they will not show what they(we!) have, then who will? [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 November 2002 at 09:58 PM.] |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 9:57 pm
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| How 'bout you? |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 10:02 pm
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| I'm not that guy, Jim. I ain't no icon. I believe that in order to make big inroads, big players are needed. Why should it be on my shoulders, anyway? I'm 52 years old, part-time player with a full-time job. There are awesome career steel players that could be doing it. I never said I had the courage or committment to be that person. I just believe that that is what we need. And I knew some people would make me accountable for my statements, but I'm saying it anyway. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 November 2002 at 10:04 PM.] |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 10:11 pm
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Fair enough, Jeff. I was mostly just rattling your cage, but I will point out the following:
1. Our "icons" are all older than you anyway.
2. The "legit" jazz community doesn't give a hoot about who our "icons" are anyway. If one has the chops and the ideas/creativity to "cut it" with the big boys in jazz, one can become "their" icon, and the hell with us. This is kinda what's happening with Robert Randolph, except not in jazz. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 10:27 pm
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| You make an interesting point. Robert Randolph is a good example of that. But I can't even imagine how I could ever be that person. You know how Robert plays. The closest person to that in jazz is someone like Herby Wallace. I think he would be an incredible choice to be that person/player to make those inroads. By the way, these aren't new opinions of mine. It's stuff that I have posted in bits and pieces, and spoken privately about to a number of friends/players for a while now. I know it sounds preachy, but no one else seems to be saying what is obvious to me, and Perlowin is the first player/poster I have seem on the Forum that actually addressed some aspect of this subject, so I jumped all over it. Thanks Mike for bringing it up, but you may have opened a Pandora's box here. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 10:51 pm
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| I just got back from a long rehearsal with a metal band. When I was packing up, the 'counter guy' came in to start reaaranging the room, saw the guitar and remarked that he had periodically stopped outside to listen, but didn't hear the steel guitar. I confirmed that in this context, it doesn't sound like a normal steel guitar. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 1 Nov 2002 11:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| you may have opened a Pandora's box here. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 4:15 am
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Well Jeff, how about the Jazz on Buddy Emmons and Jazz guitarist Lenny Breau's "Minors Aloud?"
This is most definitely bona fide Jazz music...bonafide Jazz numbers....and while I'm certaintly no expert on Jazz, it sure sounds like a jazz band to me. And there ain't no bigger Icon than the Big E! OF course the late Lenny Breau
was/is highly regarded througout the Jazz community. No twang on this one.
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Andy Alford
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 4:47 am
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| It maybe that he just does not like the steel guitar.Most people have not heard steel jazz but steel in country and in some other forms of music.Many people do not like country music or the steel guitar. |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 5:24 am
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There can't be a discussion about taste in Tone or sound. Red isn't better then green..
What counts to me is the approach.
You always will feel the need to prove yourself as a countrypicker to play Jazz.
It's the same discussion as thinking that white people can't sing the blues, or can't rap...
If your bag is country, it will show in Jazz, and the other way around too.
I believe it's the musician , not the instrument.
If you fine-tune it, you get the discussion that Jazzguitar can't be played on a Stratocaster, only on a hollowbody Leavin or Gibson. To me that's crap.
I think this 'jazz-guy' already had his mind made up, even before Mike played him Doug J.
Arrogancy?
JJ
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my bands CODand TSC
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 5:37 am
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I worked a few night-club jobs with a jazz guitarist years ago who called country pickers "twangy." He said, "You should try to get a nice brown tone." I told him his tone sounded like something else that was "brown."
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 5:46 am
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Minors allowed and Buddy notwithstanding, the jazz community in general believes that the steel is incapable of playing anything other than country.
I'd like to relate 2 incidents. The first is that in the early 80's I went to a local jazz radio station with an armful of jazz steel LPs, including Buddy Emmons' "Steel Guitar Jazz and Minors Allowed, Doug and Bucky, one of Reece's albums and some others. I spoke to the program director and told him I wanted to donate these albums to the stations record library, and all I asked was that somebody check them out and play them on the air occasionally if they liked them. He responded by "explaining" to me (like I was an idiot) that his station played jazz, not country music. I pointed out to him that these WERE jazz records, and would fit into his format, and asked him to listen for himself. He then said that his station only played records by horn players, and that he was not interested in ever playing or even hearing himself, any music played on a pedal steel guitar. He more or less threw me out of his office.
The second incident occurred in the late 90's. I approached a well known jazz guitarist and told him I would like to try to play with him and see how we blended. As soon as he saw my card with the words "pedal steel guitar" on it, he became extremely belligerent. "I don't play no country and western music. Do I look like a hillbilly to you?" I tried to tell him that the steel was capable of much more than E9 country licks and crying sounds, and mentioned that I had just finished recording a transcription of Stravinsky's Firebird Suite on the instrument. He sneered back at me that I must have done it country style and told me to get out of his face.
I tried one last time to reach this guy by sending him a tape. He, like the guy at the radio station, refused to even listen. He returned the tape with a note saying that he "knew" without hearing it the tape was no good because the steel can't play either jazz or classical music and that I was wasting my time even bothering to try.
These incidents are more to do with the country only stereotype that has plagued the instrument for decades rather than the original intent of this topic which is about twang, but I think it all relates. The twangy tone that works on country doesn't always work on other kinds of music, and the Doug and Bucky LP is a major example of that. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 6:28 am
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Andy and Johan, the guy I played the records for was most part unfamiliar with the steel, and I played him several records, most of which he liked.
He specifically singled out Doug Jernigan's tone on that album as unsuitable for jazz, (while admiring his playing.) I happen to agree with this assessment, as did a couple of other people who posted here who are familar with that LP.
This thread WAS intended to be about tone. The topic has drifed somewhat, as often happens on this forum. But my contention is that the twangy sound that works in country recordings, particularly the sound Doug Jernigan achieved on that album, doesn't work in jazz, and players should be aware of that and when playing other kinds of music besides country, adjust their tone accordingly.
I suggest that everybody who is umfamiliar with the Doug and Bucky LP give it a listen. I think some of the comments posted on this thread were made by people who have not heard the album. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 6:37 am
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Strangely, we seem to care what 'they'(the 'jazz guys') think about us and our instrument, but I rather doubt that 'they' give a hoot about what we think of them...
It's difficult to generalize, but I wonder if we're suffering from a kind of collective insecurity here. Why, apart from the natural desire of all performers to make an impression, are we so anxious to win 'their' approval? I'm not being contentious here - I often feel the same way - but I do find it curious.
(This 'thread' HAS strayed a little, Mike, but I feel these are related issues.)
The beauty of our instrument is its distinctive 'voice' - maybe that unique characteristic is also its 'Achilles Heel'....
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Roger Rettig [This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 02 November 2002 at 06:41 AM.] |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2002 6:59 am
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| Since Doug Jernigan is on the Forum, I'd like to hear his thoughts on this topic. |
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