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Topic: C6th: The Cop-out Neck |
Marty Pollard
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 7:02 am |
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Time for a new topic guys and girls.
I owned a ShoBud D-10 in the late '70s and used the C neck as an armrest; then I got my S-10 Dekley and have had it ever since.
Occasionally over the years, and most recently at the show, I've sat behind a C neck and here's what I found out- see the thread title.
The C neck is kinda like the vibes; you just can't make an ugly sound on it. On the other hand all the sounds sound pretty much alike on it.
Supposing a player was familiar with only one neck; a C6 or an E9: I contend that anyone could go from E9 to C6 with relative ease but that going from C6 to E9 would be almost impossible to do well.
It takes more thought, practice and accuracy to play E9 passably than C6. A lot more room for error on E9.
Brother Maynard, bring up the Holy Handgrenade of Antioch. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 7:14 am
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| Brother Marty..and your point is ?... |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 7:19 am
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As the author of a topic a few years ago called "C6th Sucks!" I'll have to pass on any comment on this one. I'm still reeling from all the barbs and hate mail I got from that one. However, I did get a lot of emails agreeing with my position, they just didn't want to go on the forum.
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 7:31 am
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| Marty, as a long time player and advocate of C6, it is my contention that you need to be spanked. And I don't mean by some sexy disciplinarian in fishnets, garter, and stilletto heels. |
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Marty Pollard
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 7:37 am
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That's ok Jeff, I'll take it anyway I can get it. 
So I take it you disagree?
And Jerry obviously agrees!
And Tony? Anybody's guess! |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 7:57 am
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| Quote: |
| all the sounds sound pretty much alike on it. |
Actually, to get serious for a moment, I don't know if you are just trying to have fun, or if you intend to make this a serious topic. I'll be a sucker, and take the "serious" bait. IMO, the reason why you get so many different "sounds" on the E9 is due to the fact that it is a "gimmick" tuning. The whole tone moves that define E9 are a "gimmicky", though admittedly very enjoyable, sound. The note-splitting stuff is gimmicky. The "chromatic" strings at the top are gimmicky. The extra D note at the bottom is gimmicky. What you like is the gimmickyness. It is great-sounding stuff, but also, we tend to rely on this kind of pedal-pumping stuff. Piano players don't have gimmicky things in their tuning, 6-stringers don't, sax, violin, etc. etc. But E9 pedal-steel has it. However, C6 is decidedly NOT gimmicky (except for the "boo-wah" sound). It's an honest tuning built out of jazz theory, using stacked thirds to create the basic underpinning to the chords and scale relationships. The pedals are almost all half-tone moves to make cromatic notes available. That's why jazz chords, with alterations and extensions, are available. On C6, maybe you can't make an "ugly sound", but you need to be musically intelligent to make somthing that is worthwhile. On E9, you can slam the pedals, or split some notes, and everyone (except steel players) goes "ooh", because it has such a unique sound. On C6, if all you do is pick some 6th and 9th chords, you aren't gonna fool anyone. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 7:59 am
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| Quote: |
| The C neck is kinda like the vibes; you just can't make an ugly sound on it. |
There were probably more than a few people in attendance at the local watering hole I played on Sat that would disagree... 
Nice to see ya round again Marty...
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Home Page
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Doug Seymour
From:
Jamestown NY USA (deceased)
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 8:15 am
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| I like this Jeff guy....hope I meet him some day. Anyone that knows C6th the way he does can't be all bad!! Guess I'll have to e-mail you, Jeff! |
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Robert Thomas
From:
Mehama, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 8:21 am
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My comments on E-9th and C-6th.
I play about 50% of my music on C-6th. I find switching from one neck to the other very comfortable since I play either one with ease. That came from many years of playing both. I find the E-9th is probably more compatible with what is viewed as counrty, but C-6th also works fine depending on the paricular sound you want. I have always found that C-6th works better for me when I am playing Hawaiian songs and many of the old standards.
Just my honest view. Hope that doesn't offend anyone. |
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Rob van Duuren
From:
The Netherlands
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 8:25 am
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another reason why I think Lloyd Green should be rated a 10. (If I have to have an armrest,
I prefer a softer one. And makes the guitar
lighter too. brilliant) |
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Ron Page
From:
Penn Yan, NY USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 9:06 am
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Disclosure: S-10 on double frame... I'll always be too bad on E9th to get around to another tuning.
I think, like E9th, the 6th is only as good as the player. I don't care if some of the licks I'm hearing on these steel CD's are played on a kazoo, it's good stuff. The music I prefer to listen to has to get beyond 4-note chords. If C6th is played without complete reliance on those fat chords then I tend to like it a lot. I heard a lot of 6th played this weekend that I really appreciated. I'm more into the country stuff than jazz, so I'm referring mostly to western swing.
I think a lot of less accomplished players don't do C6th justice, and vice versa.
I recall Herb Steiner saying, "I'm going to play another one on the E9th. I know that's what you want to hear". He was simply acknowledging that amongst us harder core country fans, there's a preference for the E9th.
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HagFan
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Marty Pollard
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 9:12 am
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I'm dragging the following over from the other thread:
| Quote: |
| alot of us are interested in the musical advantages (or maybe uniqueness would be a better word) provided by the mechanical aspects of the pedals and levers |
Jeff, you're making me THINK about how to position my argument.
Somehow you have managed to argue my side for me; now if I can just get at it and twist it back on you.
Seems to me that you're saying that the C6 is alot like having the exposed guts of a piano in front of you and just plucking out string combinations you like (while occasionally mashing a pedal to get the desired interval).
Whereas, the E9 (gimmick or no) presents us with the task of finding elegant solutions for mode/scale/voicing/passing situations that then present themselves as UNIQUE to the mechanics of the E9 neck (and the 'standardized' changes available there).
So, I think that is what makes E9 THE 'PEDAL' steel neck rather than just a scalar tuning with a few compensators for #s and bs.
Yes, C6 sounds pretty (pretty boring, to me) but is less of a 'PEDAL' steel neck.
And my fascination is w/'PEDAL' steel not slide guitar.
Howdja like THEM apples?
C'mon, I can take it!
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 9:18 am
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i'mw: Jeff on this 1
i'm no reference as a Steeler but i just love that C6. even more than E9 !
i've only discovered C6 a couple of years ago, but it's the kind of colour i like.
i'm more into chords dig ?
and not just I IV or V
i'll agree that E9 has a Gimmicky sound or catch to it.i do find it harder to play chords on tho'.
but i have found a basik relation between both necks. Each one has 2 chords in 1
E9: E+B C6: C6+Fmaj7
C6 ain't ugly ... 
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Steel what?
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 9:22 am
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two words:
CURLY CHALKER |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 9:40 am
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| Quote: |
| Somehow you have managed to argue my side for me; now if I can just get at it and twist it back on you |
I feel the same way. You want to legitimize pedal steel by saying it's about the pedal moves within the phrasings. I want to legitimize it by saying it's about the range of notes, types of voicings, theoretical underpinnings, and musical relationships that define it. On C6, the pedal moves are a means to an end, not the end itself. In fact, I feel that C6 is "piano-lite". I'll go one step further and say that, given 100 arbitrary musical situations covering all genres, a player who is equally accomplished on both necks (very rare) would, taken as a whole, do more playing on C6 rather than E9. ON THE OTHER HAND, without the pedals as a "gimmick" sound, what is to distinguish pedal steel from 6-string guitar. The sliding into notes. 6- string guitar licks are more punctuated, steel licks softer. How about the massive range of C6, the variety in mixings extremely wide voicings and narrow ones, and the huge range of voicings that go from 4 strings to 5,6,7 etc. etc. Hence, it starts to become like a piano. So, if I'm selling it, I'm selling it on C6. If I can't win on that, then I can't win, and I play country music forever more and am not legitimate on the world stage. Phew!! |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 9:41 am
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quote:
two words:
CURLY CHALKER.
He is it. He defines to me what pedal steel is, and how it should be sold to the master musicians of the world.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 September 2002 at 10:44 AM.] |
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Ron Page
From:
Penn Yan, NY USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 10:10 am
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I may be off on this, but I'll chance it.
Take a listen to Hal playing "Please Don't Leave Me Anymore". It's the first cut on "Slidin' for Scale. I believe from the sound of the first few bars -- big chords --that it's on the C6th neck. It just blows me a way, and I offer it as an example of how C6th playing at it's best.
Now, if we learn that that tune was done on E9th then so be it. I'll simply have to resolve this one to the "tastes great" or "less filling" type of argument.
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HagFan
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 10:11 am
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"NOT" agree.
tp |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 11:34 am
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| Quote: |
| The C neck is kinda like the vibes; you just can't make an ugly sound on it. On the other hand all the sounds sound pretty much alike on it. |
I record with a 'heavy metal' band. The majority is on the C6 neck and I can make it sound like a car crusher. |
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Marty Pollard
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 11:43 am
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| Oh yeah! I remember hearing you at the convention! |
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Kenny Dail
From:
Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 1:29 pm
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Sometimes a situation requires different approaches to satisfy the desired effects wanted in a musical situation. The E9th and the C6th tunings give you the two different approaches needed in any musical involvement regardless of genre. As has been previously stated, "the tool is no better than the mechanic". Our instruments are just that, only "tools". Your choices and approaches to a situation may require a special treatment that one tuning cannot deliver either by a malfunction of the 'tool' or the users inability to improvise. I think any steel player that wants to be recognised as a proficient and well rounded musician will have the tunings that he needs to meet his musical demands.
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kd...and the beat goes on...
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Marty Pollard
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 1:52 pm
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Well Kenny, I don't which song it is but there's a tune on the Evening of E9th video which made me do a SERIOUS double take on hearing LG take off on a ride.
I was LOOKING for that C6 neck but doggone it; he was still on his regular ol' gimmicky single neck E9.
I can fake C6 when I need to but this was UNREAL! |
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Ian
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 2:06 pm
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| I certainly hope this doesn't digress into a East Coast vs. West Coast Hip Hop rant |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 2:17 pm
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| Forget LG for a second. Let's examine the concept of "can I play a swing song on E9?", or "can I play a country song on C6?". Well, you obviously can. You can find some strings and pedals on E9 that'll give you a C6 sound (BE does it in "Houston" by the Gatlin Bros."), and you can find some strings and pedals that'll mimic the A,B sound from E9, and basic 2-note harmony phrases. You can always work out some instrumentation, surround yourself with the right rhythm and bass lines, and for one song, or one ride, play something great that sounds like it would comne from the other neck. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that you can play an entire genre of songs with a wide variety of chord changes and improvisations; it doesn't mean you can play all accompaniment, fills, solos, heads, etc. etc., at least not without ridiculous contortions. If the next claim to be made is that you somehow can play jazz and swing on E9, and forget C6, then there will be some serious debatin' goin' on here. |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2002 2:50 pm
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| I found myself having an argument the other day with a rocket scientist at this club I was playing at. He was honestly convinced that Creedence Clearwater was the most important musical contribution of the 20th century!!! After that waste of time, I think I'll stay out of this one [This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 03 September 2002 at 03:55 PM.] |
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