George Piburn Steel Guitars

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

After reading several postings on the SGF bb's from people seeking opinions about different non-pedal Steels for purchase; I've been meaning to mention George Piburn's George Boards Steel Guitars. I think they are surely worthy of checking out if someone is looking to purchase a non-pedal Steel.

As you can hear why in the sound clips and see in the pictures on his website (links provided below), I think George's Steel Guitars are right up there on the top shelf of any Steel Guitars ever made. Incredible tone and sustain right up to the razor sharp edge of the tone control wide open if a person desires it; And a wonderful low-mid "nasal" quality (low-mid smirk in an nicely "flatter" / fuller EQ-graph smile). They are also quite fat in that "Hawaiian" sweet spot with the tone control rolled way-back to where the treble just starts coming on. And George is a SUPER good person. As soon as he opens his string spacing up to at least 3/8" (.375") on some planned future models, I'll hock the farm to get one ! His string spacing is currently .360", ...and although the difference is only about the thickness of a credit card between strings, my fingers are just too clumsy to work the bar fluidly and play anything much tighter than 3/8" and a longer scale length than George's excellent 22 1/2" (picky picky picky!). As you can also see in pictures elsewhere on his website, his Steels are meticulous works of Craft, Love and Art.

George captured some cool "ditty" pickin from some non-pedal Steel Masters testing his Steels at the Texas Steel Guitar Association Jamboree 2002 (Maurice Anderson, Buzz Evans, Billy Robinson and Chuck Lettes). He has those sound clips on his website.

Here's another pretty cool sound clip of the tone of George's Steels.

I would imagine that some of the Steelers here on the SGF have had some experience with George's Steels. Maybe they can add their perspectives / opinions also.

I spoke with George today for any updates on his production. He said he can make some very good discount deals on some model runs he's doing right now. You can contact George at george[AT]georgeboards.com or from his website.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 21 June 2003 at 07:22 PM.]

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Denny; I have met George and seen and played his Steels.....and I agree with you my friend.
George is a MASTER craftsman if you ask me.
His Steel guitars are well thought of, down to every detail.
Sure some like longer/shorter scales or wider/narrower string spacing....But I didn't notice any sustain problems on this shorter scale George has....and string spacing> well I can get used to anything I suppose......But my drothers is 24" scale and 3/8" string spacing at Bridge and Nut.
Eventhough my SSHAWAIIAN steel is 24" scale....and 3/8" at bridge...and 5/16" at nut.....I now wish I did 3/8" all the way across.....and so I digress...ha.
I love every single thing George is doing and I am a HUGE fan of the GeorgeBoard...and I want one So bad(a Koa with 24" scale and 3/8" spacing nut to bridge) I can taste it......>and I'm sure one day; George will build me that one......But money ain't happening for that steel yet....But I can dream can't I?

I would say....If someone is looking for a steel...or wanting to add to their collection or never even considered a different steel guitar than the one they have> LOOK NO FURTHER..."Georgeboards" are where it's at Man.....HANDS DOWN!!!1

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Ricky Davis

My Homepage
Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@aol.com

Byron Walcher · From: Ketchum, Idaho, USA

I bought an eight string from George last spring and will confirm everything that Denny and Rick have said about the sound and quality of these instruments, also that it is very lightweight and beautiful. I will also say that George is a really great guy to deal with and that I don't think that these guitars can be beaten for the money.
Byron

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Lashley Legrande D10 8x7,Emmons Legrande 8x7, Sierra Lap-Top, Webb Amps

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

THANKS Ricky and Byron; I thought there must be others that have experienced George's phoenominal Steels !

I didn't mean that George's 22 1/2 scale was shy of sustain either; Shootz, I don't think I've ever heard a Steel come anywhere close to the sustain of his Boards; They just ring forever. But then again, there's allot of fine Steels I've not had the pleasure of playing. I've about settled into 22 1/2" being just right for me; Probably because I spend so much time on my old blue MOTS Magnatone. Slants seem a breeze with that scale length and 3/8" string spacing ... although a bit tight in the upper register.

I'm very impressed with George always planning "improvements" into new production runs ... beyond what is already phoenominal in the previous run(s).

Speaking of fine Steels; What's the scoop on your SS Hawaiian? Now there's another Beauty! I thought for sure I had seen a bit more info and pictures when I put your link on my website over a year ago, than the one small picture I can find there now with no info other than the Archie Cox collaboration. Is there more info posted somewhere I can't find now?

Aloha,
DT~

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Question with regard to scale length:

As the popular lengths are 22 1/2 & 24, has anyone made, tried, or thought about a
23 1/4?

BTW, I got to see and try some of George's guitars at the 2002 Dallas show. They are fine steels indeed. Very beautiful woodwork. George is also a very personable and enthusiastic guy.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 22 June 2003 at 05:11 AM.]

Terry Farmer · From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

Howard, I'm curious about the 1/4" in your question. Why 23 & 1/4? I have a '59 Gretsch and it has a 23" scale. I like that alot but it's probably because that's what I got used to playing. I'm starting my second homebuilt and it will have a 23" scale. That is unless you give a good reason for that extra 1/4". You're killin' me. Just when I thought I had it figured out, too.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Denny; when we re-did mightfinemusic.com....we didn't include all the info on Construction of the SSHAWAIIAN; that we had on the old site....Sorry.
Mine is made out of Australian Silky Oak and Archie's is Hard Rock Maple.
The Tuning pan and pickup Plate are machined out of pure Brass...the adjustable bridge and V-grooved guaged nut are Stainless Steel....the pickups are made by Jason Lollar and have Volume; Tone and Blend control like the Stringmasters.
The SSHAWAIIAN is absolutely the nicest sounding Hawaiian steel I've ever played> Until I played a GeorgeBoard....WOW.
Ricky

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Are you guys high, what tone? Nice wood working, but those audio samples can't be doing justice to what those steels must be capable of. Denny, if you got all that tone out of those audio samples, your ears must be tuned to a very positive frequecy? I would like to hear a GB steel with different amp settings and maybe heavier strings. I still think my Magnatone cheapo sounds better than those audio samples and nowhere close to the great tone of a 1.5" Ricky pickup. Ricky, I know you think highly of Goerge as a person and craftsman, but you even changed the amp settings when you tried out his steel in Texas a while back. I have noticed there are 2 schools of thought when it comes to tone on steels, 1 use's light guaged strings and a treble tone and the other school goes for that heavier string tone like a fender strat with heavy guaged strings tuned down a half step so you can bend the strings. I love Don Helms sound but SRV has had a lasting affect on me I guess.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Terry, I took the average between 22 1/2 & 24 which comes out to 23 1/4.

I just figured that 23 1/4 may combine the best of both worlds for both slants and sustain.

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

What is the string spacing on the Georgeboards at the nut and bridge?

I assume from the different posts that it's a little tighter than 3/8"...

String spacing is the one thing with steel guitar that's always fascinated me...but it also brings an equal level of frustration! Each guitar has a different spacing, and some even have a different distance between each string!!

I have a Rickenbacher and Magnatone with about a 3/8 (6/16) at the nut, but about 7/16 at the bridge...a bit wider. My hand and fingers tend to favor that particular spacing, even over the 3/8 straight across.

My Harmony lap steel is 5/16 at the nut, and 7/16 at the bridge. Even with the 5/16, the lower fret slants aren't "too" bad...I guess the 7/16 bridge spreads out the strings at the lower frets ever so slightly, to make slants a bit more comfortable (but this guitar is also 23 inch scale, so that may affect spacing too

).

5/16 straight across (IMHO)is way too small. The right hand fingering is too tight and slants are a nightmare.

If I were to get another guitar, I would want 3/8" at the nut for sure. But I'm still not sure if I would want 3/8 or 7/16 at the bridge. My fingers adjust to either pretty well, but in trying to answer that mysterious question of what is the "perfect" spacing, I don't have a definite answer/preference on the bridge yet.

As far as scale length is concerned, I have to admit, long scales have a sweet tone on the high frets (the 26" scale fenders sound great at frets when the short scales start to lose sustain). My vote, though, is for a shorter scale for optimal slanting.

So with string spacing, scale length,tunings (and I won't even add the variables of physical materials into the equation), I guess that's why it seems so hard to get a solid answer on the perfect guitar, and it's part of what makes learning steel a little frustrating. But when you think about it, steel gutiar is still in it's infancy compared to "standard" guitar.

Anyway, has anyone else out there experienced the dilemma of 3/8 or 7/16 at the bridge?

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Jesse; yes I didnt' comment on the tone of the audio samples....and I can only comment on the tone of what I hear in the guitar that can certainly be brought out through my rig.
Yes I tweeked on the tone in Dallas when I played it...but also I would dial it in through my rig not a prob...
The sweetness of the steel can be heard through what ever settings anyone uses...>than you adjust to the way you like to hear it.....and a bad steel can't be done...and a good one CAN....and the GeorgeBoard is a GOOD one....
I know just by playing the instrument accoustically; if it's gunna accept the tone I want or not...and this one can in a big way.....Just like my SSHAWAIIAN....and can make is sound anyway I want....full range from warm and buttery to bright and crispy.....(anyone gettin' hungry??ha..)...but I never listen to someone else playing a steel; to determine if it has a good tone or not....>I only know if it has the tone I want by playing the steel...>than I know....and the Georgeboard can do what I want it to do.
Ricky

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Jesse,

You might very well be correct that my ear is prejudiced in hearing George's sound files ... by having heard and played a couple of his guitars. Or maybe from learning to hear old vinyl records with all their noise. Or it might be the noise still ringing in my ears from that mule-drawn flatbed wagon I just pulled into town in a couple nights ago. About a year and a half ago I met up with George on Maui playing one of his Hawaiian models with Henry Allen out at Kihei, ... and the next night he and I sat and played until wee hours of the morning, for and with some VERY Hawaiian slack key guitarists at my brother's house in Lahaina where I got to check George's guitars out pretty darn well. I ain't got no other agenda but to tell what I saw and heard! I don't think George's sound files will win any awards ... but I also think someone with a decent ear can hear George's guitars in those sound files rather well.

But then again, maybe you might be any number of people that just don't like George's geetar tones. Jerry Byrd once told me that there hasn't been a Ricky with real good tone since their first wood frypans! Who am I to argue with anyone's ear!

It might interest you that EVERY pickup on all George's models are modeled by Lindy Fralin for Magnatone pickup characters plus some additional benefits ... with great success IMHO. The tone is no more comaparable to a 1 1/2" shoed Ricky than your/my MOTS Maggies or a Stratocaster is. George's Board tones are very distinct; Very clear, very sharp, a very nice "nasal" quality bump in the low-mid EQ-graph, has great sustain, and holds it's EQ-graph right out past our hearing range. George's brother owns an exotic wood company on Maui so George was/is not shy of R&D wood to choose from; And can give a person a pretty good run-down of the tones of each wood he uses. Like Ricky Davis, George has great things to say about Australian Silky Oak.

My Friend, hardly ever do I sit down to another person's rig without changing the amp settings ... and I'll bet you would change mine were I to ever have that pleasure of your company (some day I certainly hope!). George sets his tone like a Samarai sword ... as do many other Steelers, ... while I set a Steel at Jerry Byrd's "about 2 1/2" treble tone-control "Hawaiian" sweet spot, ... and I have graphed my amps at about T3,M5,B8 for a long time, adjusted slightly for the diameter and character of whatever speaker(s) are present and the individual characters / conditions of the valves present.

Actually, I think there's about a million schools of thought regarding any geetar and rig's tone ! Otherwise we'd probably have allot fewer geetar companies using very similar pickups, shapes and woods, and amps with no tone controls! Seeing how many different ways Pickers set their rigs has been a life-long enjoyment to me. When I get the pleasure of sitting down with you, I'm sure I'll enjoy your tones and pick your brain about your ideas and production of tone!

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 22 June 2003 at 10:09 PM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

The abstract of string spacing and scale length can be rather easily imagined by picturing a straight line between two notes 3 strings and 1 fret apart on a bar-slant. The result of a longer scale, OR a tighter string spacing, is more slant between those 2 notes.

So we can see that, say, 3/8" at the nut requires more slant towards the nut than were the nut spacing a wider 7/16. 5/16 would produce an even steeper angle of slant. On the other hand, with a tighter string spacing, if we're using a "standard" 2 3/4" x 3/4" steel-bar, then we could reach farther between notes on a slant towards the nut-end's wider FRET spacing.

7/16 at the picking end affords wider space for picking fingers ... but also shallows out slants in the higher octave where they're already quite a trick on short scales.

Now on the surface I would think that a difference in spacing about the thickness of a credit card wouldn't make much difference .... but it darn sure does to me!

And dog-gone-it, I have to eat crow; I pulled out my MOTS Magnatones (my favorite spacing / scale) ... and they're 7/16 at the bridge, not the 3/8 I had some time ago measured carelessly only mid-neck and subsequently claimed was the measurement on both ends! So I can't very well propose now an even 3/8" preference! BONnnnnnG. But it sure explains better why 5/16 is too tight for me! It also suggests to me why there is a noticeable difference in the ease of bar slants in the higher registers on my 24" Rick Console than on the MOTS Maggies. My finesse in the upper registers of the Maggies leaves allot to be desired if I'm not paying extreme attention. And I must also add that before I got the Maggies I played the 24" Console exclusively for several years, and didn't find the slants down low to be difficult ... although they sure are easier and more fluid on the 22 1/2" Maggies now. That certainly echos the opinions of others on these forums that have said preferred scale length has allot to do with several variables such as what octave a person favors playing in. That also suggests that several people's pondering a "happy medium" scale length might very well be something to try on a homebuilt; Although I would imagine there might very well already be some Steels made in that manner that I'm not aware of. I'll post a new message bait and see if we can't find some folks that might have played or know more about scale lengths between 22 and 24. It also wouldn't be a big chore for someone to make a temporary capo-bridge and shorter temporary fretboard for a 24" Steel and try out different scale lengths.

As a sidenote; I'll bet that pedal Steel Players would find George Piburn's 5/16 string spacing more appealing than the wider spacings many of us non-pedal junkies prefer.

I guess that puts us right back to individual preferences and the tasks of designing a homebuilt.

Aloha,
DT~

Terry Farmer · From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

Denny,
My first 8-string homebuilt has a 22.5 scale length and .344 spacing (between 5/16 and 3/ Cool

on both the bridge and nut ends. This spacing was set by the pickup that I used for the guitar. I actually feel more comfortable on my old Gretsch which has a 7/16 bridge and 5/16 nut spacing with 23" scale. I'm drawing up my second homebuilt now. It will have a 23" scale, 7/16 bridge and 3/8 nut spacing. I think this is going to be the best combination of those vaiables for my tastes. I don't think there is going to be an "ideal" that is best for everyone. I would guess that what you initially get used to will dictate your future preference for spacing and scale length.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

My friend and fellow forumite Oakley Hicks did a real nice analysis of string spacing, scale length and slant angles ... comparing a 22.5" scale Ricky Bakelite (B6), a 22" scale 8 string Excel JB Frypan and a 24 1/4" scale Sierra Laptop 8 string.

Heres O.J. ...

quote:

A= Distance between Fret 1 and 2
B= Distance between Fret 1 and 3
C= Distance between Fret 1 and 4
D= Space between String 1 and 2
E= Space between String 1 and 3
F= Space between String 1 and 4
G= Angle of forward slant from Fret 1 to 3

DIMENSIONS FOR THE THREE GUITARS ARE AS FOLLOWS:
[All dimensions are in inches, as measured on my guitars with a ruler calibrated in 1/32 of an inch. Dimensions may vary slightly from guitar to guitar of even the same make. But this should give some idea of the degree of angle on the bar on the nonpedal guitars under consideration.

A= Frypan=1.1265; Rick=1.1719; Sierra=1.250
B= Frypan=2.2656; Rick=2.3125; Sierra=2.4676
C= Frypan=3.2813; Rick=3.3594; Sierra=3.5937
D= Frypan=0.3281; Rick=0.3646; Sierra=0.3385
E= Frypan=0.9843; Rick=1.0938; Sierra=1.0155
G= Frypan=66.5172; Rick=64.6861; Sierra= 67.6312 (degrees)

Consider a forward bar slant across strings 3 to 1, and from fret 1 to 3. The angle the bar would subtend in that movement is approximately as follows:

The arctan of G is B/E. For the Frypan: 66.5172 degrees; For the Rick: 64.6861 degrees; For the Sierra: 67.6312 degrees. To give some idea of how small the difference in these angles are, comparing the Sierra and Frypan consider the following:

The difference in the angle through which the bar pivots: 67.6312 degrees less 66.5172 degrees =1.1139 degrees difference with the Sierra moving the greater amount.

Or another way of evaluating just how much the tip of the bar on the Frypan would move by holding the pivot point on string 3 at fret one and allowing the hypotenuse of the triangle to be the radius of the arc one is swinging with the bar, the bar on the Frypan would have to move an additional 48 thousands of an inch, just slightly over 1/32th of an inch, and less than 1/16th of an inch. Pretty small

Thanks OJ ...

quote:

Jerry Byrd once told me that there hasn't been a Ricky with real good tone since their first wood frypans!

Personally, I enjoy listening to the JB records that were recorded during his "Bakelite years" more than his later stuff ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 June 2003 at 09:40 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

One thing I have wondered about scale length, is it's effect on the natural harmonics and their intonation found at the 5th, 7th and 12th frets. On our electric guitars we have to set the intonation because of the frets, but since steel doesn't use frets but still has the natural harmonics there, what effect does the scale length have on this type of intonation? Acoustic guitars that aren't set up right not only have poor intonation up the neck but also don't make the natural harmonics very well? I have heard that the short scale is harder to make unnatural harmonics on than say a long scale? Jerry Byrd isn't affected by this like the rest of us mortals are on short scale steels.

P.S. My home built, which will have a Ricky pickup soon, is 24". I am using 24" because Ricky Davis is using that scale on his SSHawaiian and says his slants are fine with better tone etc. The bridge width is a different story just yet because I have gone up to 8 strings with a modified Horse shoe magnet that was originally meant for a 6 stringer. This might mean I will have to use 3/8th" at the bridge.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 June 2003 at 08:13 AM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Yea Rick; I guess I should have qualified my JB statement by saying I personally like the different charaters of EVERY horsehoe magnet Rickenbacher / Rickenbacker Steel ... and like most Pickers I particularly like the bakelites. My point was giving credit to Jesse's ear, in that a Steel that might sound very good to allot of folks, might not to even some experts.

Aloha,
DT~

Mike Ihde · From: Boston, MA

As to the Natural Harmonics on different scale guitars, I can't imagine it making any difference what the scale is. The 12th fret is the exact middle of the string no matter how long or short it is. The 7th fret is one third and the 5th fret is one quarter the length. Being able to sound them clearly would rely on pick up placement and pick up strength (besides technique) The closer the pick up is to the bridge, the easier it is to get them to sound.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

That sounds logical to me Mike, thanks.. I guess getting the frets lined up as close as possible as our visual reference points is pretty important. I've seen mathematical equations for figuring the positions out, but most store bought fret markers are always a little off here and there, so how right is the math equations anyways?

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Fret Calculator

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Rick, is the frets a little off on a steel because the "12th root of 2" is for equal temperament and is what the fret markers are based on and steel players for the most part tune to Just Intonation? What is the 17.817 and 17.835 used for? Thanks...

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

The ratio of the Scale Length to the distance from the Nut to the First Fret was (is) used to calculate fret positions.

17.817 is commonly used as follows:

Divide the scale length by 17.817, the result gives the distance from the nut to the first fret. The remaining length of the string (scale length minus first fret) is again divided by 17.817 to give the distance from the first to the second frets, and so on.

17.835 is called the "Sloane Divisor" ... an alternative divisor to determine fret position ...

18 is called the "Primitive Divisor"

The 12th root of 2 method will give you the exact Equal Temperment (ET) positioning of the frets.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 June 2003 at 01:23 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Cool Rick, now I understand one more little secret of the steel and it's daddy, the guitar. Thanks...

Russ Young · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Thanks, Rick.

The next time my 13-year old son (a darn good guitarist) starts griping about how he'll never use math outside of school ... I'm showing him some of your posts!

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

I stopped worrying about string spacing once JB told me that he want's the spacing the same at the nut as at the bridge, as to allow proper intonation to the interior strings when slanting multiple strings/frets. Whatever the string specs are on his guitar is a good place to start, I'd think. Sorry, I can't recall them at this moment.

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