Steel & Lead - Marriage made in Heaven or Hell?

nick allen · From: France

Just as a change from "How Many XXX..." and "Why XXX is/isn't/should be in the SGHOF"...
There are occasional humorous (and sometimes barbed) comments about lead guitar players on here... I thought it would be interesting to ask for some stories/comments about playing with notable lead guitarists, particularly from the more "experienced" (for want of a better word

) steelers - e.g. Mr Emmons on Albert Lee, Danny Gatton, James Burton (I believe), and doubtless a host of others.... Mr Franklin on Brent Mason, Jerry Reed, and another host of others... and so on. How they work together, how they stay out of each other's way, famous train wrecks

...
(I mention BE and PF as examples only, all others are of course warmly encouraged to contribute...)
Also any thoughts on steel as the ONLY lead instrument (especially on stage...).
Nick

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

nick allen · From: France

True, but then again it could depend on the player

The thought came to me due to three people in particular -
1) Buddy Emmons on some of John Hartford's albums
2) Red Rhodes on the Nesmith album "Hits Keep On Coming"
3) Sneaky Pete on some of the Burrito's albums, plus a quote from him mentioned on the Forum a while back, that he started out in trios with bass & drums, which was how he developed his style of playing...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

When a lead player and I really "click", it sounds like one huge, wonderful instrument. I love it! The interplay can really be exhilarating as we cop each others licks or add harmonies that are impossible on a single instrument.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Roger Miller · From: Cedar Falls, Ia.

As a guitarist, I would think the guitarist would watch the steel player at the end of a line, and try to estimate if he will use grace notes or not. Usually the character of a steel player is to use most common lines and the guitarist must know those lines to know when to back out. Just knowing country music and you will feel it, play it sweet and it will all match right up and sound great.

Steven Knapper · From: Temecula Ca USA

As far as a steel being the lead instrument, it worked for Nezmith and the 3 FNB albums and The hits just keep coming-----I never got (or get) bored with Red's playing on that stuff, he was everywhere, always doing something different, one minute he would be playing a harmony or melody behind Nez's singing, next second he would be playing some wierd riff then jumping into the bridge-----GREAT stuff. Get a copy of Magnetic South and some headphones and just listen----the guy carried the whole band and made Michael's songs what they are. Yeah, I'm a Red fan, have been for 30+ years and I don't think there is anything like him, but my scope is limited.

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Steven

GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Bandit 65

[This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 28 June 2001 at 02:28 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Only a few lead men really know how to work with a steel. When they do, it's magic! The premiere example is Buddy Charleton and Leon Rhodes on the old Troubador albums. I have been blessed to work with two such lead men, and it's really something to experience.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 28 June 2001 at 06:48 PM.]

Buck Dilly · From: Branchville, NJ, USA * R.I.P.

I have heard a bootleg of Live Burrito Bros at Winterland. THe only soloist is Sneaky Pete. From what I heard on that, guitar is unneccessary! Also Jon Rauhaus from Sleepwalker, CD: "Man in the Moon", Hayden's Ferry Records. Just Steel, Drums, Bass and vocals. Jon has it covered.

Bob Carlson · From: Surprise AZ.

I think any CD would sound real flat with just a steel playing all the lead. Even If It was a steel CD.
You gotta have a lead guitar and It goes without saying that they must have respect for each other and work togather. You're going to have crowds that has people who want to hear the steel and some that wants to hear the standard. And If you don't play what they want to hear you won't be there very long.

Bob Carlson

Steven Knapper · From: Temecula Ca USA

Agreed in a live situation---to a point. But I swear that with someone like Red Rhodes and Sneeky Pete on steel, a rhythm & bass guitar and percussion of some sort-----these guys could (and did) pull if off. I would LOVE to play in a band with just the other 3 pieces from above, except that I couldn't pull it off, welllll, maybe in 10 more years!!?!.

Chas Holman · From: 10 miles outa Lone Star, TX - USA

I've read countless posts on this Forum about "guitar players from HELL" and quite frankly I've rarely been exposed to this phenomenon. Then . . I was asked (actually 'begged') to do a road gig with an old friend who was in need of a steel player (don't ask - I'm not mentioning names here). The gig was a three state venue and before it was over, I was quite ready to kill the guitar player - and, had I stayed much longer, probably would have done just that. BTW - I'm sure the rest of the band members would have helped me get rid of the body.

The guy was indeed a very good player, just had no concept of what I call "stage diversity". My definition of this is that if there are two lead instruments on stage then the fills, leads, etc., should logically be divided up fairly equally during the course of a song. Obviously, some songs call for guitar here, or steel there, but overall, it has always seemed to me that guitar (or anything) playing the intro, fill on the first verse, fill on the chorus and then stepping out to take the first lead ride is just plain tasteless. Working with this guy was perhaps the most trying experience I've ever had while playing music.

I've heard Paul and Brent play, awesome..!! These guys compliment each other and play TOGETHER. I once heard Buddy play with the great Phil Baugh, beautiful..!! I was also able to hear Norm and Roy play together...wow..! These professionals always seem to know where everyone is on stage, who's 'turn' it is, and when NOT to play.

The band I currently work with is a four piece configuration; drums, bass, guitar and steel, and we all have a great time. Yeah, it's a little more work for me as I feel obligated to pick up the 'rhythm' when the guitar player is playing lead or fills. I know a lot of steel players who just won't do that, but I think it helps me as a musician/player to be diverse enough to use the steel guitar for whatever comes at me musically.

And, yes, I have been the only lead instrument on the bandstand - not so much fun . . .

-Chas

Frank Estes · From: Huntsville, AL

Herby Wallace and Bobby Caldwell on Herby's last two recordings. Also, Herby could tell you some interesting things about playing a live show with Scotty Anderson.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Y'all forgot Speedy West & Jimmy Briant (?)... those two sure played like they wanted to raise all Hell... but it's steel Havens to me

... J-D.

Ron Carpenter · From: Columbus, Ohio

What I've looked for over the years is the ability to feed off of each other. When I listen to Charleton and Rhodes, Franklin and Mason, Emmons and Galbreath, and others mentioned earlier, I hear what music teachers name "call and response" Where someone feeds a melodic line in, maybe the vocal artist, and a player picks it up and embellishes it. The next line another player picks up on what was dealt to him, and plays his version into the song. Yielding the right of way to the vocal, but talking musically to each other. IMHO that is the magic of the Nashville sound; and great blues, and jazz. It the open environment that lets the musicians improvise and feed off of each others ideas.
Music played solely from the sheet music maybe faithful to the score, but it doesn't have the same feeling as "Call and Response" music of any genre.
I've played with legends in my market and been disapointed and also played with humble and modest guys, who listen and then respond. It's up to the guys playing which wway they like it best.

All my best
Ron

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I've had the honor and pleasure to play with a number of exceptionally fine guitarists here in the Pacific Northwest. Fellows like Keith Holter (Longview, WA); Glenn Smith (Sweet Home, OR); the late-Mike Quantstrum of Portland, Or; Bob Wheeler of Vancouver, Wa.;the late Ivan White of Oregon City, OR. and Bobby Gibson of Portland, OR. These musicians took pride in "WORKING WITH" the steel and or visa-versa. We played a large number of instrumentals at each dance and many were two-part harmony arrangements like Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant. Some were even 3-part arrangements that included the late Ed Whitaker of Reno, NV.on fiddle. Keith Holter, was probably the closest to work with since he'd often toss in a 3rd part for me on the slower dance tunes, and was always great to come up with a riff or whatever on some of the other crowd favorites. You really haven't lived until you've worked with a lead guitarist on any number of instrumentals and found the new joy and excitement it brings to you; not to mention, the challenge of learning and playing this NEW sound. That guitarist however, MUST be willing to BLEND with you and you with him/she...in order for it to come off sounding right and good. You can't attempt to out-do each other....it won't work.

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

I very much like to play with other lead instrauments, whatever they are. I like to play parts and feed off of other players(or be inspired by)and come up with new ideas off the cuff. In our western swing band we have steel,lead,and fiddle.Sometimes we also have piano and second fiddle. It's a real gas.
Around here, all steel lead is common as is steel/fiddle or steel/guitar.Depending on the job and type of music, a steel player can handle it alone if he is capable and creative. If you can play both necks and vary the style, you can do it OK. After you do it awhile by yourself, you learn to listen ahead and set yourself up with what you play next.
Although I like playing with guitar very much, sometimes I like the different timbre you get with piano/steel or fiddle/steel.
Ah heck. I guess I just love to play. Give me a good bass,drums, and a good singer and everything else is gravy.
Roger Edgington

Kenny Burford · From: Independence, Missouri USA

I am a lead guitarist and I absolutely refuse to play on a steady basis without a steel guitar in the group. I have been fortunate enough to work with some outstanding steel guitarist and I have come to one conclusion, the better player they are the easier they are to work with. My absolute favorite steel guitarist to work with is Brad Rigby, owner of Bradley's at Lincoln, Missouri. He does it all and effortlessly.

Robert Todd · From: Atlanta, Georgia USA

Kenny Dail · From: Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.

I don't know where you guys find your guitar players but, I have had bad experiences with guitar players. Most of them are always "turned on" and don't know when to lay out. I have actually heard complaints from listeners complaining about the steel being too loud when there was no steel being played. Perhaps it is my level of playing that keeps me from enjoying the expertise of a pro guitarist. In addition to the above problem...I find all of them want to play PSG sounds/licks. So in order to make ourselves "needed" we add all the fx such as phase, distortion, organ...and the list goes on. The thing about it is, the man that usually wants the band will say, "why do you use a steeler when you have a guitar player that can make the same sounds". So, for economic reasons, the steeler is fired.

I am sure if I were a little fish in a big pond instead of the reverse, I could get a gig with Greg, Brent, Jimmy Capps, Leon, Spider, but my professional inlovement can't afford guitarists that can play at their level. And whats worse, I can't even find one that wants to sit down and work up any of the "twin" style of playing. Oh well...what the hell.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Chas Holman · From: 10 miles outa Lone Star, TX - USA

Kenny,

After the aforementioned "road gig from hell", I can NOW totally empathize with the "overbearing guitar player syndrome". I was especially moved by your closing statement:

Robert Todd · From: Atlanta, Georgia USA

Kenny, instead of effects try a big sixth chord. In the E9 use your D lever and hit strings 8, 7,6,5,4 two frets behind the AB pedal location of the chord. (e.g. 3rd fret = D 6th). there's not a guitar player out there that can add that texture of tone, let them play the single notes, everyone will hear you.

[This message was edited by Robert Todd on 02 July 2001 at 06:10 PM.]

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