Pickup for acoustic,- Sunrise or Fishman?

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

I'm about to buy a soundhole pickup for a Superior Hawaiian, and have heard good things about both Sunrise (recommended by Superior) and Fishman's Rare Earth (apparently recommended by Bob Brozman).

Anyone with real life experience with these p/ups? Any advice appreciated.

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"I don't play fast. I'm from Norway."

nick allen · From: France

No personal experience, but I do know that David Lindley uses them in virtually all his acoustic guitars - as do Richard Thompson and EmmyLou Harris, among others... Of course, they probably all (certainly Lindley) have extensively personalised sound systems to go with them...
Nick

Alan Michael · From: Winston-Salem North Carolina U.S.A.

Streiner, I have had a Sunrise pickup in the soundhole of my Martin standard guitar for a dozen years. They are the best that I have heard for maintaining the acoustic sound of an instrument. I believe they would work well for your Superior Hawaiian.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Thanks.

Since my Superior has an extended fretboard, the Sunrise will have to be innstalled "reversed" at the back of the soundhole. Will this affect the sound?
And will buying p/up with output jack do, or should I buy one of their preamps as well?

I know it will probably sound better with the preamp, but that's where it starts getting out of my price range at the moment.

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"I don't play fast. I'm from Norway."

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 21 February 2003 at 08:47 AM.]

Dwight Mark · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

I am in the process of trying every acoustic pickup I can get my hands on for my Superior and Weissenborns.
a) I didn't notice the sunrise preamp made it sound any better than others.
b) getting a sunrise in any soundhole is a total chore or work of magic.
c) they are really heavy and block a lot of the soundhole acoustically.
d) Lindley sure sounds great with it, though. I think they give good bass, but like most magnetic pickups, they are kind of glassy sounding to me.

I currently have a duncan mag mic pickup in my superior and it sounds really good.

I have found for recording or playing acoustic live solo, a pickup-the-world pickup sounds fantastic, but can be too "air" microphonic sounding. I have setup my weissenborns for stereo now, and combine the pickup-the-world with a magnetic pickup.

My criteria in the search for the perfect pickup is based on:
a) I play live with a santana-ish hand-percussionist and acoustic guitarist, and need to cut over all the other instruments
b) I like taking the pickup out when I'm writing at home
c) I like being able to take it in and out fast and easy.
d) I have several acoustic instruments with small sound-holes and I'm trying to find a good magnetic pickup I can pop in to them.

1) I have been using a Dimarzio Super Natural. It has adjustable pole pieces and it pops in and out easily. I liked the tone of the single coil better, but it was noisy in some rooms. This is good for that magneticky live cut through the band sound and I actually like it better than the sunrise.
I didn't care for the Fishman with the microphone. The Fishman neo and the lace are decent acoustic pickups, but didn't wow me with the bass strings.
I'll be receiving a custom travel weissenborn with an even smaller soundhole, and I'm on a mission to find the right pickup to pop in, so I've got a few potential soundhole pickups lined up to try.

Dwight

Adam Boltz · Posted 24 Feb 2003 6:15 pm

I just tried a Superior with a Sunrise and MXR footpedal preamp. I was very impressed. Even though the pickup blocked some of the soundhole, I found it sounded wonderful acoustically as well.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Thanks guys!

I got an "offer I couldn't refuse" and have ordered the Sunrise. I guess one of the things that worried me was it's size and what effect it would have on the acoustic sound, but from Adam's post it seems like that will be ok (?).

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"I don't play fast. I'm from Norway."

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Oh no, NOW I am frustrated!
Got the Sunrise innstalled today by a pro repairman, and I'm really not happy with it.
Problem is the conflict between the spacing of the strings and the pole pieces.
I knew they wouldn't match, but I never imagined it would be this bad - in reality I'm pretty much stuck with a 5-string instrument....

Polepieces 1-6 covers strings 1-5 perfectly, and so far I have not been able to find a satisfying compromise (yes, I have tried adjusting the polepieces and moving the pickup around) - I basically have to choose between a weak 1. or 6. string.

ANY good advice on this, or any other good pickups to go for will be highly appreciated.
I see Dwight mentions several alternatives, any favorites? I've had bad experiences with under the saddle pickups before, but maybe the "pickup-the-world" would work?
I see some of the others have adjustable polepieces,- won't I get the same problem with those?

Luckily I have a regular acoustic guitar in need of a decent pickup so the Sunrise won't be a complete waste, I'm sure it will sound much better on that one.

PS - because of the extended fretboard of my Superior the Sunrise had to be innstalled "upside-down" at the back of the soundhole,- can that have anything to do with my problems? This solution was recommended by Berkeley so I wouldn't think it had any effect, but....?

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 18 March 2003 at 12:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 18 March 2003 at 12:30 PM.]

Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

Too bad about the sunrise. They really sound good.
I have a Dean Markley Pro-Mag soundhole pickup on my acoustic. It's inexpensive and maintains the acoustic sound. It also has no polepieces, it's just a "piece of wood". But i don't know if you can fit it into your soundhole.
I have also had a Seymore Duncan tube and it sounded quite well too. It's also much easyer to install.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Sorry to hear about the pickup troubles. I didn't quite follow your description of the problem, though. Is the pickup too narrow to cover all the strings?

The Fishman Rare Earth doesn't have pole pieces, which might solve the problem. I've used the humbucking model onstage and it worked fine (it's a little dark for my tastes but you won't get any complaints). The incomparable canadian fingerstyle guitarist Don Ross uses a Rare Earth live (don't know whether it's the single coil or humbucker), although he runs it through a Yamaha AG Stomp (or whatever it's called). I tend to think that you won't get the best live sound out of the Fishman without running it through something (or at least spending some time with the EQ--but that's probably true of any pickup); I've heard it plugged straight into the PA and the treble is a little spiky (but you won't be buying ANY magnetic pickup for the treble).

To me, the Fishman sounds best recorded. A friend of mine recently did some recording with about 50% pickup through a mic'd Fender Blues Jr. and 50% microphone on the guitar and it sounds huge.

-Travis

P.S. I've noticed that the Rare Earth single coil seemed to get a more authentic guitar sound than the humbucker in the store, but when used live it was almost too hot or something (plus you get the hum when recording).

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Thanks Ulf and Travis.

The problem is like you say Travis, there is no way to get a balanced sound, I can't understand how the rest of the Sunrise users get it (?).
It's almost as if my Superior has a wider string spacing than usual or the Sunrise is narrower than standard, anyway it seems to be impossible to get a satisfying result and I've been working on it for hours now.

I guess I'll go for a Fishman or the "Pickup The World" that Dwight mentions,- I'm curious on those PTW pickups. Only thing is I can't afford to buy my way through the whole pickup gallery, so the next one better be "the one".

All advice I can get on this is highly appreciated (even though it will probably only add to my confusion.....

)

Dwight Mark · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

The width of a real weissenborn at the nut is an 1/8th of an inch less than the superior and I find the spacing to be wider on the superior. The Seymour MagMic that Kelly Joe Phelps uses now will fit in your Superior right side up. It takes quite a bit of work, like the Sunrise, to get the thing in there, and I used a piece of cork to raise it slightly higher off the top of the guitar - something I've done with fishman magnetics as well. This pickup has 12 polepieces and the outer polepiece on the low string lines up directly under the string and it just catches the edge on the high string.
This pickup requires that you have a 9V battery in your instrument, unless you want to use their watchbattery setup, which would require you to take the pickup out frequently to change the batteries.
I would not use the pickup-the-world alone if I was playing with other musicians, it doesn't cut through, and certainly will not give you the Lindley tone - especially on the bass.
I didn't find the fishman neo or rare earth had that much punch on the low end. I've been trying out an old lawrence soundhole pickup which is working out nicely and pops in and out pretty easily.

Dwight

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Thanks for your advice Dwight!

I'll look into the MagMic, I've had nothing but good experiences with Seymour Duncans on my electrics over the years so I'm confident regarding their quality.

Hard to tell from the pic on their website, but is it just as big and heavy as the Sunrise? And with installing "right side up" I take it you mean "backwards" like I had to do with the Sunrise?

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

About the lack of punch in the low end from the Rare Earth, that's a good point. In the recording situation I mentioned before it wasn't a problem but I've definitely noticed that in a live context. The bass isn't terribly distinct or punchy and has trouble cutting through a band (although I think it's just fine for solo playing, or a very small ensemble). Definitely not that juicy Sunrise bass sound.

I've never heard a Duncan MagMic but if Kelly Joe Phelps is using one, it's probably just fine.

-Travis

Dwight Mark · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

The Duncan Magmic can be installed the right side up, not upside-down.

Again, the fishman's, magmic, sunrise, all are a pain in the butt to get in and out of the guitar, so you pretty much are stuck with it installed. Otherwise, Dimarzio has several acoustic soundholes that work well. I wish I could try them all out, because they have about 4 or 5 models.
the dimarzio site is very informative on the differences. I use the black one with the polepieces on my real weissenborn.

Dwight

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

This is driving me crazy,- I've installed the Duncan MagMic and the problem is exactly the same......
Just to illustrate how "off" the mic is;
If I set the 1. pole directly under string one, the 12. pole is (almost) directly under string five.
So of course, I have to make compromises and there's no way to get a fully balanced sound.

Do I have a Superior with a wider string spacing than other Superiors? The string spacing at the bridge is exactly 7cm's (don't know how that measures in inches).

Since the problem is the same with both the Sunrise and the MagMic I think I might go back to the Sunrise, I preferred the way it sounded over the MagMic which I found was a little too "glassy" and cold to my ears (it also had a nasty "hrrrrrr" working in the background). As I recall the Sunrise sounded warmer.

Hrmph....

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 02 April 2003 at 08:03 AM.]

Wayne Carver · From: Martinez, Georgia, USA

Can you change your bridge blank to change your string spacing?

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Guess that is a possibility, yes.
It would have to be with slots for the strings, in order to force the strings a little closer.
But I have been thinking of getting one made in metal, same with the nut, so I guess I could fix it then.
It's really not much of an adjustment that needs to be done,- it's "almost there".

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Yeesh. That must be annoying.

If you're looking for a quick and dirty solution, it's pretty easy to swap out the nut. A narrower nut won't fix the spacing at the saddle end but it might be enough to pull the strings into position over the pickup's pole pieces.

-Travis

Max Laine · From: Pori, Finland

With a 7cm (70mm) spring spacing it's no wonder you're having troubles! I measured my guitars and my Fredrik Åberg Weissenborn copy measures 60 mm at the bridge, tapering to 48 mm at the saddle... measuring 56 mm where the pickup shall be! It's a 1:1 copy of a Weissenborn Style 1. My other steels have string spacings at the bridge as follows:
National 1928 Tricone; 57mm
Dobro Hound Dog 53mm
Gibson EH-150 1937 60mm
Fender 8 string Custom 8 and Stringmaster both 67 mm (8 string!!!)
So the 70mm you mentioned sounds really too wide!

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Yep, it is veeery wide.
Actually, that's been fine with me, I'm a huge guy with big hands so it hasn't been any trouble for me (except when switching between the Superior and my electrics!).
Never played any other Weissenborn style guitars so I've just figured this string spacing to be "normal", but I remember Dwight in another post here said they were about 1/8" wider at the nut than an original Weissenborn.

Anyway,- after spending most of today A/B testing the MagMic and the Superior I've finally decided to go for the MagMic.
After a little "creative EQing" and finding the right mix of the magnetic and acoustic pickups, I've managed to get a "likeable" tone from it and the string balance is "almost there".

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