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mikey · From: New Jersey

personally...the real old say Rick or Oahu amps just aren't 1. powerful enough...2. parts are obsolete and are not roadworthy, in my experience anyway ( Right, Mr.Diaz?...wherever you are.)...as Fender developed their/HIS amps...which were the first Fender moneymaker( Right, Jody?)...more power...VERY DEPENDABLE...great tone...large selection of power and size...state of the art (at the time and tubes haven't gotten any better since what? '62?...only worse, so a old original Fender Tube handwired amp IS STILL state of THAT ART,IMHO)....So..why struggle with an old low power iffy Rick amp (I'm NOT talking collecting here)When a Fender will work better in every way every time...but just my opinion...God...I don't even know what power tube/s a Rick amp uses or if you can still get 'em!

Aloha,
Mike

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

That type of tone equation I'm starting to think, is more dependant on the oversize horseshoe magnets that the early Ricks had than the amps. The amps were probably low wattage amps turned all the way up. No effects, just pure musicianship. The thread I just put up on DeWitt Scotts lap steel setup bears this out. Dick McIntire had the bigger horseshoe pickups too. I like the thick tone, the Fender stringmaster seems a little thin to me. But thats just what I have heard on recordings and I don't own one yet. Rick Turner's company "Renaissance Guitars" has an electric guitar with "The Turner (Rick) double-horseshoe pickup". It's a hot tele pickup inside a soft iron horseshoe magnet. He says it sounds as good as the old frypan pickups. I inquired to his company if I could buy one of the pickups and I'm still waiting. What if it was the bridge pickup in a stringmaster pickup harness with the option of a bypass to run the Rick pickup straight through to the amp with out any tone controll! The best of both worlds tone wise maybe. I might have to make my own pickup, but thats cool since I've decided to build my own lap and triple neck steel.

mikey · From: New Jersey

Aloha Jesse,
I got one of Rick Turners pickups when they first came out to field test...for $125 I was not impressed( I sent it back to him)..and I would double check the specs if I were you, yes...it IS a Rick horseshoe "turned inside out" and when I got mine that meant...the pole pieces were magnetized, NOT the shoes...just like a sho-bud or excel horseshoe...IT'S A SINGLE COIL THE SHOES ARE COSMETIC ONLY...The one I got from Mr. Turner himself did not have soft Iron shoes...they were steel straps...also you are missing the point entirely about using a single Stringmaster P/U...they are doubled for the blend control which allows them (being reverse polarity/wired) to go from single coil to humbucking...so as far as thin sounding...you must have never played one and adjusted the amp and put the blend to both full on...it's a humbucker...a Rick is much thinner sounding being a single coil period...I'd look into it a bit more perhaps Rick Turner changed the design...but last time I talked to him, he had not.
Good Luck,
Mike

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

mikey · From: New Jersey

That is really true...that's why Alnico 2 magnets in a single coil p/u, like a Strat give a smoother more bell-like tone, w/ more sustain..because the magnet's weaker...the string doesn't have to fight the magnet's pull so it can "sing" eaisier...so the weaker the PU's MAGNETS the more singing the tone..now you take that PU and put it into a high gain amp ( I like POWER AMP gain personally, I don't use the preamp for more gain than nessesary...I use the POWER AMP for loudness..Pre for tone)...and you've got the IDEAL tone..I had a Sho-Bud Pedal steel once the single coil was so hot even with the preamp turned down to like 1...I could not get a clean tone out of it, it was too overwound so the output was too high, but it still sang, it was just distorted...but those PU's with those HUGE magnets..they will actually choke the decay of the note and you'll lose sustain and sweet tone...but a Stringmaster set on full blend gives you humbucking which won't do that..that's why you can set up 1/16" from the strings w/ a humbucker as opposed to double the distance for a single coil...so ideally for a sweet tone you want relatively weak-average magnets..not overwound and make up for volume at amp so...NOT an old 2 watt Rick amp w/ a bakelite...a 40 watt Bassman or something....Twin/Pro/Deluxe/Vibroverb...
whatever you need for the venue....
Mike
Unless of course you're miking the 2 watt in the studio then the amp's power doesn't really matter, it's tone does...it's basically a balancing act between magnets and winding(and position)...the guitar is the tone machine..the amp is just that...amplification of said tone so, I personally like a clean amp and want the tone to come from the instrument...not have to worry about shaping tone w/ the amp...

[This message was edited by mikey on 16 December 2002 at 01:42 AM.]

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Aloha Lads !!

Firstly I'd like to state that my comments are purely my own opinions (And probably could be contradicted AND proved wrong)

What is a "Good Tone" ?
I think it's a tone that is warm and clear but not TOO muddy or brittle.......
There's the problem...... warm, clear, muddy , brittle, How do you define these parameters ?
I don't think you can . except by using KNOWN parameters such as Jeff has done.... associating a particular tone with a particular KNOWN player.
(players such as Dick McIntire and Sol Ho'opi'i)
But the again , what part of their particular era are we refering to ?

Secondly :-
I think that tone is very much determined by the player's touch. The strength of picking, the distance from the bridge, that type of picks and steel bar, and so on, the search for the ideal combination is what we ALL participate in. (Especially here on the Forum)

Finally :-
From my experience, the impedance of the pick-ups of vintage instruments is MUCH lower than more modern ones.
The difference between the amp input impedance and the pick-up coil impedance DOES have a significant effect on the overall tone.......But it's all subjective.

A valve pre-amp usually has a lower input impedance than a solid state one, leaving us with the fact that modern guitars SEEM to match the Peavey type of amp, (Solid State inputs) whilst older guitars seem to sound better with Fender types(valve IP)

As a conclusion, vintage guitars through vintage amps in a "Modern" studio environment, miked with modern mikes and techniques and recorded with modern recording gear can't possibly sound the same as the original late 30's and 40's Steels sounded.
How do we know for sure that the sound we hear on the old records is the actual sound created in the studio.There are much TOO many variables between the original performance and the record's final reproduction on the listener's "System"

Well that's my opinion FWIW.

Mahalo
Baz http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/html/basil_bio.html

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Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Jeff,

I think the MOST relevant point is that

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Hey Mike, what I was trying to get at was:

"what if you had an oversize Rick pickup replacing the bridge position pickup of a stringmaster, wired to the neck stringmaster pickup with the blend controll hooked up".

I was wondering if the humbucking effect would still be there? Also, having the Rick pickup be able to have the option of "bypassing evrything including the master tone controll and run directly into the amp for more output".

Also, I'm a guitarist just getting into steel and trying to get the most hip for the buck! I really appriciate how smart you guys are and want to thank you for helping to educate me. This place is better than collage!

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

I think the tone we love on those early 1930's, 40's electric steel recordings is the result of the low wattage of the amps of the day. I think those amps were around 5 watts or so. They distorted in a very full, saturated, musical sort of way at very low volumes giving the player a full, saturated, musical tone.

I don't think you can get that sound on say a Twin Reverb which has 80 watts or any other mega-watt amp unless you crank the volume to bleeding ear levels.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Educate me please.

Try playing any steel guitar through a low wattage amp cranked up and you can aproximate this tone.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 16 December 2002 at 10:27 AM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

The closest to "that 30's sound" that I have been able to get is thru a Magnasync Moviola .... tiny tube amp made for old movie editting ...

But its noisy ... and "shake, rattles and rolls" when the volume is turned up ...

The reason I like the Super 60 and the 135 watt Twin (with a master volume) .. is cause I can bring up the preamp (channel volume on Twin and gain on the Super 60) to just under the distortion point .... set the master volume to max to get the power tubes glowin' ... and control the volume with my Hilton pedal.

No reverb on either, ususally.

I also wire ALL my Rickys straight to the jack ... no volume or tone pots (Don't worry ... all the vintage electronics are just sittin' there ... one solder job from original) ...

I'd rather have the Hilton handle the volume and use the amp for tone shaping ...

Works for me anyway ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 December 2002 at 11:03 AM.]

mikey · From: New Jersey

I looked it up in the manual..."Good Tone"...is between your ears!!!
Mike
Oh and PS...That's why I use a tweed Champ most of the time (for recording anyway...too hard to break...simple to use...)

[This message was edited by mikey on 16 December 2002 at 05:09 PM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Before the "it's all in the hands" replies start ...

I have recordings by Sol Hoopii (electric) ... from the early 30's and then others from the late 40's ...

Same player, same hands, same kinda guitar ... but the sound ... different.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 December 2002 at 08:01 PM.]

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Aloha Jeff....... I could record you and get "That" sound..... but then again look at the years of an apprenticeship that I've served, not forgetting the "Gear" and the knowledge of how to use it !!! I doubt if a "Modern" day studio technician could .......but playing the cards close to the chest is what us old timers do so well and SOME studio tricks remain soley OUR domain.

I was employed by the Dept. Of Education in Ireland and seconded to the Acedemy of Music Technology and Performing Arts, where I did pass on SOME of my knowledge to the students, then I retired from teaching. Now I am Happy to just play a little and chat with friends.
Baz

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Use your ears,your head,your picks,and your bar,a good technician and you got it made in the shade. Any shade where you live? that may be the problem.

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

Since there was no 'one way' the old timers did it, and that they were probably going for the best sound they could get with the environment and eqipment at the moment, it needn't be a hard thing to replicate. Out of neccessity to 'keep it down', I got a interesting old sound match by putting an old amp and mike in the tub with a carpet covering it. Ran it to the recorder, with headphones, and bingo! Any good(to taste)sounding area and old/simple equipment along with the normal trial and errors(which is half the fun)should provide success. I too have used a Mini Disc recorder in these applications, a good and convenient way to go. So many sounds, so little time.

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Michael T. Hermsmeyer · From: Branson, Missouri, USA

Wow, so much information, so little time to reply and learn! I was thinking about going back to college, but I don't know if I can find as great a source of knowledge as right here in the steel guitar world!! Jody, how long does it take to get a BS degree here on the forum???
1. I love the steel guitar, all steel guitars. They all sound different, they are all built different. All Stradivarious violins sound a little different, all Rick Frypans sound a little different, all Stringmasters sound a little different. I think it's great that an instrument can have it's own personality, just like humans. God created us all individualy in His image but gave us individuality. Thank God for this, because it would be a pretty boring world if everyone had the same face, the same ideas, and the same life. Thank God every instrument is different and that we all have different ears and ideas of what is pleasing to us. Some like Rick's, some like Fenders, (some can't stand the steel guitar at all, although I don't know why. But I'm not here to talk about them.)
2. Who knows what those 30's and 40's steels sounded like other than someone who was there? I was not. If you have an old 78 record that you measure the tone by, you do not. Only the person playing that steel through that amp in that recording session knows, and where is he or she? I will even bet that when they heard the recording, they were not happy with the tone at all. Because a recorded tone is the sound of many things, including the instrument, the amp, the mic, the console, the tape (or lacquer cutter back then), the transfer quality of the vinyl press, the needle of the phonograph, the amp in the player, and the speaker in the player. So many variables!!!
3. Speaking of mics... some of the mics built in the 50's and 60's are among the most sought after mics in the world today. Listen to the richness and fullness of the analog recordings of Patsy Cline and Jim Reeves. The Bradley brothers and Chet Atkins were geniuses, with great ears. I remember hearing about when Chet took over RCA. He was un-interested in the job unless they would upgrade the recording gear to the standards of the New York and Hollywood recording studios. As far as the apparent "lack" of quality (by today's standards) the tape was the main problem. There were others, but how many of us, even today, listen to a playback outside of the environment in which it was recorded and say, "That doesn't sound like me"?
4. As far as steels, the quality has always been there, otherwise they wouldn't be so sought after, in my opinion. The great Fender and other amps came later. But see, you have changed a variable. But have also made an improvement in reliability, volume and tone. Just when things were going good, Leo sold the company cause someone convinced him he was going to die. Right Jody? Then we had CBS, Japan, Korea, now China. What's next?
5. I realize that there are a great many private and small scale builders and craftsmen and women, although it is sometimes difficult to try out their products due to location, lack of dealers, and backlogs of orders. For instance, go down to your local music store and ask to try out a Scheerhorn, LOL.
6. Rickenbacker is still in business, and although it wouldn't be a huge impact (by their worldwide standards) I think they should re-issue the old frypans, bakelites and whatever just as Fender has the old 50's and 60's amps. These guitars are selling for atronomical figures these days. Why not get a little piece of that market, and give some of us poor boys a chance to share in their glorious tone.
Jody, I am trying to break the record for the longest post, am I there yet??? LOL

Merry Christmas my Friends, God Bless,
Michael T.

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UTILITY MAN PRODUCTIONS
'73 EMMONS D10 FATBACK, '92 EMMONS D10 LASHLEY LEGRANDE,
'85 DOBRO 60DS, '95 DOBRO F60S,
'95 MELOBAR CUSTOM, 1955 FENDER TRIPLE NECK STRINGMASTER. EVANS, FENDER, PEAVEY,
and MESA BOOGIE Amps.

[This message was edited by Michael T. Hermsmeyer on 19 December 2002 at 03:21 AM.]

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

No,but your awful close

but I like it.

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