Single note improv...

TonyL · From: Seattle. WA

I saw the post regarding chords and chord theory and thought I'd post my own question:

I've got a decent handle on chords and chord theory, but single note scales and solo improvisation is coming more slowly, particularly on more difficult changes.

Anyone have some good advice or exercises for me to try?

Thanks,

TL

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Sing something that sounds good and then find the notes on the guitar.

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Step one: start with playing major and minor scales 'in at least 3 different positions on the neck until you can't stand it anymore.

Step two: tape the changes (or buy a Jamey Abersold CD) to tunes like Autumn Leaves ... songs that have rich, complex chord changes yet allow you to use just one scale over the entire progression.

Step three: tape just two chords ... like Cmai7 and Bb9 ... over and over again .. then practice soloing using the scales and or arpeggios for those chords in both single notes and double stops. This gets you used to changing scales/arpeggios to follow a chord progression. Practice in all keys.

Another good thing is to tape the chords then play the arrpegios for a cycle of 4ths or 5th ... A7, D7, G7,C7 etc. Practice in all keys 'till your eyes cross and the harmonica and starts looking like a viable alternative. If you wanna plays jazz, then you can get into the flkat 5 subs for those arpeggios ... Db7 over G7 in the key of C, for example.

Sure wish I had the time to follow my own advice.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 23 October 2002 at 01:56 PM.]

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 23 October 2002 at 01:57 PM.]

TonyL · From: Seattle. WA

Thanks guys.

Here's a theory question to help me understand though- how does one know when one scale would work over complex changes...? Is there a formula for this?

TL

[This message was edited by TonyL on 23 October 2002 at 01:59 PM.]

seldomfed · From: Colorado

Earnest!
That's the best description of how to improvise I've seen yet! That's it.

Teaching someone how to improvise is the crux of the biscuit (as Frank Z. would say). Not easy to do. I think that some people just 'sing' better than others. At the root of it all is individual creativity and how do you teach that? How do find it?

Of course you need a basis - you need to know chords, what notes of the scale to play over those chords, know some theory, have chops enough to play what you hear, (learn them scales), and have some standard licks under your belt. But it often comes down to just being able to 'sing', ie. have a musical idea of what you want to play, and then play it. (What Earnest said) Experience teaches as well - so the more melodies you have in your head, the more you'll be able to mix and match and create. So it takes time and practice. But it takes more.

I've noticed that I constantly run into two main camps in players I know - the 'x' players who can read like machines, lots of formal training, know theory in detail and can play great with music in front of them. Then the 'y' players, the 'feel' players who learned by ear, have a great sense for music, can listen to a song and just play it, know lots of musical styles, and can read if they have to, but sort of fake it.

In the extreme..., the X players can't improvise a lick or couldn't hold down a grove by themselves to save their soul. But could easily play a hot lead written out. They can blow thru a killer lead they've memorized, but if you tell them to do that in another key - oh s**t. And just the reverse is true for Y folks - they can just rip it up, but can't tell you what they just did and can't repeat it note for note!. But they can play pretty much the same thing in any key, tempo, or on many instruments. So who's better? I don't know.

IMHO I think to improvise well you need to have a little X and Y in you. If you're lucky you're born that way - the rest of us have to work at it. I marvel at people who can really 'sing'.

Chris

ps - what's that old quote "Yeah, I can read, but not enought to hurt my playing"

------------------
Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"We can't afford to let Nature run wild" - govt. offical - Alaska
www.seldomfed.com

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Now-a-days I often find myself where I don't belong and have no business bein'....

At Bluegrass jams ... where I really don't even know the songs .. let alone the chord changes ... that take place really fast anyway ....but there I am ...

Good thing just about everything is in G or A ...

When they say "Take one, dobro" ... it doesn't seem to matter what I scramble through ... But where I PAUSE and/or LAND .... that's the biggie.

To stay out of too much trouble I break up the major scale (and some "blue" notes) into two sections ... and usually don't connect the two in one phrase .... maybe jump to the other after a pause ... kind of a question and answer deal...

7b..7..1..2..3b..3..4

and

5b..5..6..7b..7..1..2

Anyway, when I hear the "break" windin' down I usually head for the 1,3 or 5 and cross my fingers

Ain't been thrown out yet ... but they don't even want to hear about Rickenbachers

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 October 2002 at 06:15 PM.]

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

Andy, I'll second that on the Jamey Abersold series. Great back up work for most of the popular standards...I have several of his discs, and my brother uses them too (he's a percussion instructor).

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

This is all great advice.

If I may add to these, I would say to build your solos like poetry. In other words, try to follow a structure of licks like a poem... AABA ABAB ABCB... etc.

The general public is not very musical, they need familiarity & simplicity. Be tasteful

Try to save the tastiest lick for the end of the solo. Make sure the end of your solo has the feeling of "ending" or "resolve".

Listen to the pros, they remain strong throughout their entire solo.

Also, conserve your talent throughout the night. Don't play your best licks in the first song. Or for that matter, your best songs early. Good luck getting the rest of the band to do that because many times they're getting drunk and wanting to show off for the opposite sex or another musician.

Make a serious effort to make every performance better...More feeling, better timing, more dynamics etc.

Constantly let your mind focus on the other members of the band and ask yourself...
"Am I fitting with the groove of this instrument?", "Am I adding to the sound of this group?"

Last but not least.

Always practice with a metronome or a drum machine. Play in time! Most unprofessional musicians play way too far ahead of the beat.

I've spilled my guts.... Thanks for letting me rant. I feel better now (LOL)I hope this advice helps.

[This message was edited by Danny Bates on 24 October 2002 at 03:56 AM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Great comments there "Seldomfed"!!

For once I've been put in my place. Just knowing now, that I'm a "Y"picker.....gives me some identity that I've been lacking for years. I agree with virtually every word you stated.

I cain't memorize no more......(Memory is gone! that's why I had to revert to numbering the ex's.)...so I'm definitely not an "X".

When the band starts out with a good ole western swing tune, whether I've heard it before or last played it ten years earlier, I have NO IDEA where I'm going with my turn.

I latch onto what key they're all playing in, somewhere during the first verse, and merely lay the bar on the strings, prime my pickin' hand.......think of some riff ole "Murphy" might have done and away I go. I have no idea where I'm going or where I'll end up. My only plan, is the next note, where is it and what am I gonna do with it. I seldom get lost, unless the tune is really crooked........and nearly always end up right where I'm supposed to. However, there have been one or two occasions where I did become frighteningly and hopelessly lost and when it was all over, I was complimented on my "fine ride". I guess they tho't I was playing out on the fringes or something. I've got a few tapes of my bandstand work that today, I couldn't even duplicate. Don't understand what I did, how I did it, OR WHY. Sometimes it's sound a little like Noel BOggs, other times somewhat like Murphy or whomever, but the bottom line is, it's me, for better or for worser.
I'm not bragging.....nothing here to brag about. Those of you that are so well schooled in THEORY and do such a fantabulous job of explaining it to others, truly overwhelm my musical sensitivity. I only wish I could understand what you're talking about. Speed pickers too, make me extremely envious. I was trained to sight read piano music and transpose in my headbone. Today, I can't even explain what all those funny looking, squigly(sp?) marks mean.
WOrking with what I've got....I end up playing dinky.....but the challenge of playing an unfamiliar upbeat tune is, in my book, what the musical challenge is all about.

TonyL · From: Seattle. WA

It's funny, As a bass player, I'm 100% comfortable inprovising.

But- I played my 2nd night out on steel ever last night- and promptly forgot everything I've practiced. At least there is nothing like diving in head first...

T

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

RIGHT ON RAY

I couldn't have said it better LONGER? YES,,BUT NOT BETTER. edited Im
a Ray Montee fan.

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 25 October 2002 at 12:54 PM.]

Bruce Clarke · From: Spain

Seldomfed--yes indeed,this unfortunate division of ability which you describe so well is a reality, but you ask which is better, x or y. The answer, I suggest,is either/or, depending on the musical situation one is in at a given moment, one or the other can be a distinct advantage.So the ideal I guess is to develop both aspects as far as one can, but there is little incentive for steel players to develop their reading skills since this so seldom called for.

John Kavanagh · From: Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.

Guy I know studied jazz saxophone with Lee Konitz, one of the greats, and he said on the first lesson (this guy was already and advanced player) Lee gave him a Lester Young record and said "lock up your case for a week and listen to every solo on the album until you can sing it from memory."

The next week he was to figure out all the solos by ear on his horn. No written music involved, no line-by-line hunt and peck, just making that connection between the ears and the instrument.. Assuming you're at the point where you can play by ear any melody that you can sing, copying a lot of solos by players you like (and not necessarily on your own instrument) is a good way to kick-start your own imagination.

The next set of assignments Konitz gave him was to learn a single melody really well, in any key. Then he was to vary the tune a little, but "so that your grandmother would still recognise it". Then, after he'd done that awhile: "now vary it so that your mother would recognise it, but your grandmother wouldn't." Then, I forget, so your wife would recognise it but your mother wouldn't, and so on until even the composer wouldn't know the tune. Again, working by ear and with melodies, not with chords.

And finally, as Charlie Parker said (I forget the exact words): "First you learn all you can on your instrument, then you learn all you can about music and theory, then you forget all that shit and just play."

Still learning...

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Hey Jody! Now if you were sitting up there on the band stand or main stage behind your very most favorite Fender steel guitar, in front of a cajillion music lovers (at least half of them steel guitar players....and the rest were lonely older widow ladies) and they kicked off "Proud Mary" in the Key of G.....for the sake of improvising:

What would be the first tho'ts to go thro' YOUR mind? (In under 2,500 words)

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

You guys are right and I was wrong. Melody is king. I'm going to go listen to Paul Desmond for a couple of days.

seldomfed · From: Colorado

Hi guys,
Lot's of good stuff here! It's a very tough question with lots of right answers. I think we just need to remember we are all unique and we all learn in very different ways. So sharing what works for you will help us all.

Here's some help with the 'x' stuff - a web link that has a lot of excellent information on jazz improvization that a friend of mine created.
http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/index.html

I know Marc, have heard him play. He's one of those guys that has maximized both sides of the equation. (x+y=z) with z of course being defined as... "Zounds that guy's good!".

Besides learning history and techniques and theory - one of the things he says is to find your own inspiration. Find your own creativity. Listening to different music styles is one way to do it.

The hard part for me is carving out enough time away from the details of life to let my mind open up to new things (and also study the basics).

yours in 'y-ness',
chris

------------------
Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"We can't afford to let Nature run wild" - govt. offical - Alaska
www.seldomfed.com

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Without a doubt the best learning tool for improvising is playing MANY songs with a live band, over and over. Most of the improvisers we admire put in many thousands of hours doing just that. A great alternative is the many play along tracks now available, where you can follow the advise in the posts above along with a musical groove. Abersold has some beginnning improvising sets that address just such practice, with cycles of 2m-5 chords in all keys, basic blues tracks etc. This is great practice and you can get most of them way cheap on ebay! I can also really recommend the "Stand Alone" series of Cd/book packs for guitarists, usually in the book section of your local guitar store. They come in various genres such as "Country", Light Jazz" , Classic Rock", etc. and are extremely well recorded and fun to play along to. Once you have your basic scales down, try working out a simple pattern, melody, phrase you've stolen, whatever, and then shoehorning it into every style/key/meter/progression you can. You'll start to see what does and doesn't "fly" and developing your own taste and voice.

seldomfed · From: Colorado

btw, did we say yet that - Band In A Box is also good software for easily creating jam tracks on your PC.

Lots of good threads on this forum about it.
http://www.pgmusic.com/

chris

------------------
Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"We can't afford to let Nature run wild" - govt. offical - Alaska
www.seldomfed.com

John Kavanagh · From: Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.

...Paul...Desmond....mmmmmmm.....

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I used to listen to Paul Desmond in the 60's and I'd like to play steel like he does sax.......al

Zayit · From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Dear Tony,

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Listen to lots of Curly & Buddy playing single note runs on their back necks. Then listen to some the sacred steelers who play nothing but single note runs most of the time like this guy: http://www.nff.net/activities/guitar/calvin.html

Practice your scales, play along with the giants, then use their stuff as inspiration to get to where guys like Ray are.

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

I've been listening to Paul Desmond for several days in a row. He's gotta be one of the all-time greatest melody players in all of jazz. I can't recommend this set too highly:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003G76 /qid=1036244226/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6606351-1273756?v=glance

If I didn't want to spring for the box set, the CD I'd get is Bossa Antigua. Lots of lessons here for steel players in how to phrase single notes. Jim Hall's guitar playing is brilliant as well. Sorry for the topic drift, Brad.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 02 November 2002 at 05:36 AM.]

William Steward · From: Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands

I am a piano player with a love for steel. Paul D. is an immortal as is Trane or Miles -Cindy Cashdollar gives sage advice in her video 'Beyond the Basics' about listening to horn players (after all they are confined to only playing one note at a time!). Great improvising on any instrument is telling a musical story - obviously there are no rules but some kind of form or idea beyond the changes, scales and other basic building blocks makes all the difference. I think part of the process of improvising a good 'single note' solo is to have your mind in a state where it can tell that story on the fly....concentration and imagination. From my experience 'substances' usually don't help that kind of concentration so I try to avoid them for the 3 or 4 hours of performing. There is more than enough technical advice in this thread for practising the basics - Aebersold is great since they usually print the scale 'suggestions' for each chord change. It's definitely not about how many notes one plays and as one of my teachers used to say, space is the final frontier. Tell a story.

[This message was edited by William Steward on 04 November 2002 at 05:58 PM.]

[This message was edited by William Steward on 04 November 2002 at 08:23 PM.]

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