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Topic: DSL problem |
Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2001 11:12 am |
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Ok you experts, I need help. I am trying to get my Earthlink DSL account to work with my new Dell 4100 PC.
Here is what I have:
Dell 4100, Pentium 1gb, Windows ME, 3Com model 3C905C 10/100 NIC, SpeedStreem model 5260 DSL modem, new dedicated phone line.
Problem: Modem "locks" up very slowly. Once locked and connected, can't access ANY web page, get "page not available.." error.
Earthlink has tried everything their tech support can think of, now say it must be a NIC problem. Dell sent me to a site to download a driver patch, didn't fix the problem. Dell say's the NIC is working fine (ping and self test mode), sugggested I call 3Com tech support. I will do this on Monday.
Any idea's from the forum experts?? I have got to get past the finger pointing of the company's involved.
Thanks,
Allen
P.S. I am a aerospace EE, but very limited in my computer system engineering knowledge. Plus, I retired and don't want to work my old brain that hard.
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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 15 Jul 2001 12:29 pm
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I one problem (one of many) when I switched to DSL. The problem turned out to be a wrong option at the local telco. I could get the DSL modem to sync up (and it does take a while (30 seconds or so) for the modem to sync up and all 3 green lights to come one.
But, I could connect but it was very slow. My uplink speed was less than 2Kb/sec, where the service was supposed to be 128 Kb uplink (768Kb downlink) and I couldn't send e-mail, etc. After Verizon corrected the option it came up.
If you can't get to any server, including Earthlink's I'd suspect if the Telco line is optioned correctly that Earthlink has a problem. I had Earthlink dial up, and started to go with Earthlink for DSL but they were so screwed up (and hard to get hold of) that I nixed that and went with a local company. When I did talk to them I got the impression they had no idea what was happening with DSL.
Sorry to be so negative, but I find that there are very few that really know what's happening with DSL service. It's still relatively new and unless you get to someone that really knows it seems like a waste.
I was in Telecommunications and Networking, and working with Telco's (and AT&T) on modems, digital services (T1's, etc) was one of the tasks I did. I "speak their language" and it's still hard to get someone that really knows. In most cases if it's not an apparent problem it's hard to convince telco they have a problem.
Finger pointing was another thing, with a multi-vendor network I faced that daily. |
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Craig Allen
From:
BEREA, KENTUCKY, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2001 2:46 pm
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Allen, as I was reading your post, a flag went up.
I think you're gonna find that it's a problem with your browser. There seems to be an "issue" with Explorer.
I am just now learning about this, as I too have just set up DSL.
SWBell says to do this.
Open your browser. Select TOOLS. Select INTERNET OPTIONS. Select CONNECTIONS.
At the bottom of that window, select the LAN SETTINGS button. Make certain that the first ( 2) boxes are NOT selected.
This is a real annoyance for me, I don't know why Explorer acts this way, but it does.
Another option would be to run another browser. Netscape is not supposed to have this particular problem, and that might be the reason that the bell companies are bundling Netscape more often than not.
I also run a browser called OPERA. Pretty good browser. Very fast.
One last thing. I too run Zone Alarm. I've noticed that when Explorer locks up, that if I restore the zone alam console, then minimize it again, the browser releases, and goes about its business. Go figure.
I hope this works fer ya.
Bon Chance
Craig
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Craig Allen
From:
BEREA, KENTUCKY, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2001 2:52 pm
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Another thing has just dawned on me.
I had to remove my dial up networking, from device manager, before I could get the damned netwok card to work. The computer knew it was there, and tried to use it, but.......................
So......you might try removing your dialup networking, AND your NIC form device manager, then simply reload your NIC, ONLY!!
Get it up and running, then if you need dial up, reload it, and everything should be just fine.
BTY, I an running the same modem as you, but I am using a different NIC.
Bon Chance
Craig |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 15 Jul 2001 2:53 pm
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The "Automatically detect settings" is checked in my I.E. 5.5 setup. It's been that way since I went to DSL back in December. All my problems have been (Verizon) telco line associated except one and that was the telco supplied DSL modem.
The Fujitsu DSL modem problem was a hang up problem that required repowering the modem and forcing it to retrain (resync). They sent me a newer version that fixed that problem. |
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Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 16 Jul 2001 1:40 pm
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Hey Guys,
Thanks for the inputs. Sorry to say none of them helped. The problem is now raised to my telcom via Earthlink.
Will let you know what happens.
Thanks,
Allen |
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Geoff Brown
From:
Nashvegas
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Posted 16 Jul 2001 2:11 pm
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| Hi Allen...hope you're using a firewall with that setup. Assuming you are, could it be something as simple as allowing IE to access the net thru your firewall? I know that sounds pretty basic, but sometimes (in my case, anyway) the solution to a problem turns out to be something simple that I have overlooked. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 16 Jul 2001 3:03 pm
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I suspect interoperability problems with the Speedstream 5260 and whatever line card is in the DSLAM. The Speedstream uses an Alcatel DSL chipset and chances are the CO is using somebody else, Globespan, ADI, ???. Alcatel was the first big player in DSL and still has the largest market share, so they tend to 'do their own thing'. I could be wrong, but I expect your telecom provider is the right place to get help either way.
I was curious as to why you have a dedicated second line? ADSL will run spectrally above your normal phone line, allowing simultaneous data and voice traffic with full time 'online' capability. You shouldn't need it.
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 16 Jul 2001 3:33 pm
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| Bill, I wonder if he means the 2nd pair. My DSL filtering is done in the Telco Demarc box and the regular voice lines use the standard Red/Green pair and the DSL "data" is on the Black/Yellow pair.??? |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 16 Jul 2001 4:27 pm
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Jack,
So that's how they do it huh? That's a slick way to get the DSL side of the filter routed around the house separately from the POTS. I guess I assumed they would run a separate drop from the splitter to wherever the modem was installed. Makes sense though since the extra pair is already there.
Allen said dedicated line, I assumed a real second line, maybe not 
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Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 16 Jul 2001 6:04 pm
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Geoff, yes I am using a firewall but have it disabled during this DSL setup process.
Bill, your info will get passed on to Covad via Earthlink. Good thoughts!!
The second line is really not a seperate number, just a dedicated cable pair from the PID to my modem. They (Qwest) call it a "home run line". It connects from the main line service and goes direct to my DSL modem. The rest of the house service is fed from the distro blocks in the PID through a filter. In my case they did not use an unused pair, they ran a complete seperate 4 pair line.
Thanks again,
Allen
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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 17 Jul 2001 2:49 am
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Bill, having the voice/data filter in the Telco Demarc box is the cleanest way to do it.
However, they also send individual filters with the DSL kit and with that method you plug in a filter between the telephone line and each voice telephone set. You do not use a filter on the DSL modem connection. With this method all connections are done to the primary red/green pair and the other pair is not used, as it's done on a "normal" telephone line.
Using the black/yellow pair is done a lot of times when a second telephone line is added to a residence. Saves rewiring the house wiring - just the outlet that you want the second line at. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 17 Jul 2001 6:41 am
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Jack, I've seen the 'microfilter' arrangement you've described. It's an attempt to make the turn up for the customer as painless as possible. The DSL providers don't want to send a technician to the home, costs too much. So the workaround was to come up with those inline filters.
From the DSL side I can tell you that they aren't perfect, you tend to see significant changes in loop impedance (from the DSL side) when the phone goes on or off hook. DMT doesn't like that, and in some cases it even forces a retrain.
The true splitter is a much better system. This is interesting stuff (geek?), I designed and built a DSL POTS splitter as a project for a class I took at UT. I found that it was a lot more complicated than just wiring up a bunch of R's and C's. The requirements defined in the standard are pretty stringent.
Allen, you said Qwest was your telco provider, they happen to be one of our customers, I hope you're not hooked up to a Cisco DSLAM...
The more I thought about it the less likely it would seem for a telco to deploy a box with known interoperability problems. Qwest in particular has hammered us pretty hard on that. Jack's guess about incorrect line configuration may turn out to be closer to the problem. DMT is extremely complex, with a lot of variables, pretty easy to set up a configuration that has problems. I know, I do it almost every day...
Keep us posted, I'd like to know what they find.
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Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2001 2:34 pm
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Well no luck yet. Earthlink techs finally got my computer so screwed up I had to reinstall the Windows Me op. sys. After todays trouble shooting it was concluded that there is a line problem. Lots of data sent, very little received. Trouble ticket will be sent to Covad.
Bill & Jack, yes it is one of the microfilters furnished in the "kit" that my telco tech installed on the "rest of house" phone line.
Bill, you stated:
"The true splitter is a much better system. This is interesting stuff (geek?)..."
One of the first things Earthlink said was regarding the installation of a "POTS splitter", in fact recommended a Secor brand. I asked the telco and others about it and received no recognition of what I was talking about. Since I didn't know what it is or does, I could not add to my statement.
Perhaps you can enlighten me?
Thanks again..........allen
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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000
[This message was edited by Allen on 19 July 2001 at 03:38 PM.] |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 19 Jul 2001 4:07 pm
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Two things. First, if you have Windows ME, you shouldn't have had to completely reinstall it. Windows ME has a restore function that will restore your computer to an earlier time. This function is accessed throught the "msconfig" panel. To access msconfig, click start then run and then enter msconfig and click OK. When the panel comes up, in the lower left will be a button for restore. Click on the button and follow the directions. You should have several system restart points, just select one that is before whatever problem your are having happend (e.g. accidentally deleted a file, configuration, etc).
As far as the filters, they are only there for the voice telephones, they have nothing to do with the data. I originally used the generic filters (made in the far east) that Verizon supplied with my DSL kit and they worked fine. I had other problems, including one in the Telco demarc box on the outside of the house and he just went ahead and put in a new demarc box that had the splitter built in.
It sounds like you have three strikes working against you, Earthlink, COVAD and the local telephone company. And US West is hell. I was responsible for the telecommunications in all the Social Security offices in Colorado (actually all of the midwest) and US West was one of the harder (and slowest) companies to work with on data problems. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 19 Jul 2001 8:22 pm
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Allen,
Here's an app note from Midcom, one of the magnetics suppliers for a lot of the splitter manufacturers. This should give you a good understanding of what's going on.
http://www.midcom-inc.com/technology/technotes/TN89.asp
Figure 3 is typical of the microfilters.
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Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2001 3:07 pm
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Jack, yes I'm aware of the restore function in ME. In this case I went back to two different points in time. It did not clear the error messages and I still couldn't run "winipcfg" without a fatal error message. Restore also did not get back to a point that would allow my dial-up account to work. In fact the Dell Tech support person informed me that there is a hidden file on the C: drive that contains all of the factory "as delivered" setups. He tried, but no luck. Reloading ME was the only solution. Lesson learned: "Don't let these ISP techs lead you into doing bad things"
As you probably know Qwest bought out US West. Haven't seen a lot of improvement!! Covad is in financial trouble, so don't know how long I will have DSL, assuming I can ever get it running.
Bill, Thanks for the info from Midcom. It would have helped if someone had just said to me that it is a steep skirt low-pass filter. My old EE training would have picked right up on that. Oh well.
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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000
[This message was edited by Allen on 20 July 2001 at 04:15 PM.] |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 21 Jul 2001 2:47 am
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Alan, thanks I had forgot about Qwest.
And, sadly most of the tech's I've talked to for either PC or ISP support haven't got a clue if it gets past the easy "consumer" type questions.
As far as Earthlink, I had Earthlink dial-up service before I went to DSL, and it had a much better connect/log on time than any other ISP I tried. They used to have fairly good response times on calls - that is until they bought Mindspring and it seemed to go downhill from there. The DSL division is actually a division of the old Mindspring. When they first started the DSL, the URL for the Earthlink DSL homepage was a mindspring URL.
If they can't get it working, ultimately you might have to look into a different DSL provider. I have a local (Tampa) DSL only ISP. They deal directly with the LEC, which is Verizon (used to be GTE) no other middle company such as COVAD is involved. I get good service out of the ISP as the support person is also the company VP - no hired help to deal with. Unfortunately I'm moving in the next two weeks and I won't be able to get DSL, or this company at the new location (but I will be able to get TW Roadrunner service). |
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Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2001 9:00 am
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Jack,
Thanks for all your input.
I have had many ISP's over the year's. Earthlink has done very well for me. As you said, very good service until they bought out Mindspring. I still get good service, just a little slower. Neither me or my wife want to change ISP. We have too many things out there with our email address. Would prefer not to change. Oh well, Dial-up isn't so bad. I get consistant 33.6 to 56K connects.
I will give them a few more day's and attempts to get DSL working.
Take care, Allen
P.S. got to get off of this computer and trying to get DSL working and back to practice on my PSG!!
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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000
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Craig Allen
From:
BEREA, KENTUCKY, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2001 5:22 am
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Allen, PLEEEEZE try this.
First let me tell ya, that I wound up with the same problem that you have. I also spent 5 hours on the fone, with various tech supports. (SWBell/Prodigy/AIS, etc.)
Also, prodigy told me that there is an "issue" with the Speed Stream Modems, that have a serial number that ends in {oo3}.
They said to me that the Bell Co's know about it, and still ship the modems.
Here is a keyboard shortcut to help you out.
PRESS THE "WINDOWS" KEY, AND THE "PAUSE/BREAK" BUTTON AT THE SAME TIME, AND IT WILL OPEN DEVICE MANAGER. This saves a lot of time when you need to work with D/Mgr and don't wanna screw with opening 1000 windows to get to it.
Uninstall/remove your network card, and dial up networking. Physically take the NIC OUT of the computer, as well as your DIALUP MODEM. Then REBOOT. Then Power Down the system. RE-INSTALL the NIC, ONLY. (Letting Windows find it on the reboot).
Reinstall the software for the NIC. (Now for me this turned out to be a real hassle, but after some finessing, I got it to take the drivers.
Then, COMPLETELY ReInstal The software that came with the Speed Stream. (Follow the instructions to the letter.)
After all of this, check your E Mail. Email will hookup, even when your browser won't.
If you can get E Mail, you're on your way.
Then if you still have a problem hooking up to a site with your browser, you will need to tweak it a little, using the method that I had explained to you in an earlier post.
Now, I'm certain that you are thinking I must be on dope, cuz you're certain that you did all of this before, and it didn't work. Well, I'll bet a pot of coffee, that you didn't.
Nor can I assure that this will work. This is what I ended up doing, after the assorted tech. supports threw up their hands and said I had a screwed up computer. (Blame my equipment for their equipment being screwed up, cuz they can't find THEIR problem, and not wanting to admit that THEY have issues with THEIR junk.)
I can be reached at 281-357-1042.(The Woodlands, Texas)(near Houston)
If you feel the need, you can call me, and I can talk you through this. I'm pretty much home 24'7 and take calls whenever they come in, so don't feel bashfull.
I gotta tell ya, I've been watching this post since you put it up here, with total frustration/empathy.
I have a couple more tricks in my bag, but I'll wait to see your results first, cuz they're a pain in the a$$.
Bon Chance
Craig
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Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2001 10:49 am
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Craig,
Lots to think about, don't have time today but will look tommorow.
The SpeedStream Model 5260 does not have a serial number that I can detect. A tag on the bottom, near the model number, indicates "060-5262-006". Might this be the number you refer to?
You also mention getting email. This I have been able to do from nearly day one. Very slow, but it will find my mail.
I did do all you mention, except for physically removing the NIC and the modem. I will wait a day or two to see if the Covad or the phone company can ID a line problem.
Thanks for your input. I will call if nothing else turns up.
Allen |
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Craig Allen
From:
BEREA, KENTUCKY, USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2001 4:52 pm
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Yes, that is the serial number. Mine is printed on the bottom plate, though. (Mine ends in 003 !!)
I am on the phone with my partner, and he just hit on an IDEA, as I was reading this post to him.
He keyed on the notion that you have a second dedicated phone line for your DSL.
It may be possible that they hooked you up backwards!!!!!!!!! Meaning that they hooked the FIBER OPTIC wire to your telephone, and the DSL to COPPER Wire. (hey, it's the new phone company, anything's possible!!!)(My parents are Bell Pioneers, and have no faith in the phone companies anymore.)
Can you please swap the lines between your DSL, and your telephone, and give that a try.
I shouldn't be suprised if it works, and it would be a simple fix. OR, make sure that the Telco is sevicing DSL on the Glass wire, not the copper wire. It sounds dumb, but...................
DSL over copper would explain the slow speeds, and why your browser won't lock up.
It would also explain why they can ping you, and you them, but not have service.
Bon Chance
Craig
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 23 Jul 2001 2:43 am
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I'm confused. What does "fiber optic" have to do with DSL? DSL works over standard copper, and that was the big push on DSL that it worked over the standard copper pair telephone line. But, there are limitations, such as 18,000 ft from the Telco central office and no repeaters or loading coils in the line. It may go fiber once it leaves the Telco central office, but how it gets from the central office to the ISP is a separate issue.
The fact that it works somewhat (slow on e-mail) says they he is connected to the correct line. If he was on the wrong line he wouldn't get anything.
But, I do agree a second telephone line is not necessary for DSL. If the 2nd line was installed because his "normal" POTS line did not qualify for DSL, he should be able to have his voice switched to the new line and eliminate the older POTS line. One line is all that is needed for both.
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Allen
From:
Littleton, CO USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2001 7:43 am
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Craig,
I agree with Jack, DSL is designed to work on copper.
Let me clarify my lines: I have three seperate lines and two phone numbers. The first number being my regular line and DSL number. The second was installed many years ago for a dedicated dial-up computer line. The first line, my main phone, has now been divided up into two seperate feeds (wires) into the house. One for regular phone use and the second for DSL. As stated in an earlier post, the DSL line is what Qwest calls a "home run" line. It comes direct from the PID to the jack for my DSL modem, the other feeds all of the other phones in the house, through a filter.
Yes, the phone lines are connected correctly. This has been verified on several occasions. Once DSL is working well, I will cancel my second, dial-up, number.
My distance from the CO has been verified to be 12,260 feet (as the crow flies, I am 1.3 miles from the CO). At one time it was reported that there were load coils on the line. Those were removed by Qwest as part of getting the line certified. The line was tested for loss, balance, etc. prior to certifying it for DSL, or they would not have given me a DSL account.
Yes, it may take 3,4,n tries to connect via DSL, but once connected I can reach my email, just can't browse. And it is all VERY SLOW.
Again, thanks for all the input. Haven't heard from Qwest this AM, I will wait until later in the day then call them.
Allen
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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 23 Jul 2001 7:43 am
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Maybe the phone line is just too crappy for broadband???
oops... looks like Allen answered that question as I type this in. The fact that they had to work on the line to get it 'qualified' makes me suspicious.
Just my thoughts on the comment about 3,4, n tries to get the line trained. In our lab I typically only see training problems under one or more of the following conditions:
1) Interoperability issues.
2) Extremely long loops, 18k feet+.
3) Extremely poor quality loops, noise interferers, etc.
4) Some sort of incorrect DMT configuration, e.g. trellis coding, etc...
I'm betting on some sort of layer 1 problem....
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[This message was edited by Bill Terry on 23 July 2001 at 08:58 AM.] |
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