Tuning my tele with a VS II?

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

I've been tuning my Tele at church with a Boss TU 12 or a Sabine chromatic tuner.
Both tuners have the Lights that light up when your in tune. The problem is, either my Tele is not staying in tune, or it's not in tune to begin with. I think it's the latter. I can tune it and it will sound close, but when I put my capo on(right almost on the fret, cause it has jumbo frets)it's OFF BAD! My question is, will a strobe tuner like the VS II tune it to where it will be in tune with my capo on?
I have a USA Standard Tele, I just bought it about 8 months ago, so it's not just a cheap guitar. I don't want to have to spend $150 on a VS II if it's not goin to do any better than the tuners I have. I play some songs without a capo, and some with a capo, but I just want my Tele to be in tune when I put my capo on. BTW- I have a Shubb capo almost new. Thanks for any help ya'll can give me.

Terry

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Mullen RP D10 /8x5 / Nashville 112 x 2 / American Tele and Fender
Hotrod Deville 2x12's
Thank God for music.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Terry,

Sounds like an intonation problem to me. I'd also be asking about fret wear if it wasn't new, but that can't be the problem.

The guitar presets on my Peterson are adjusted for the natural trouble spots on a 6-string guitar, but IMO they won't help with the capo problem. In fact, most guitars will go a little sharp with capos anyway. The tighter the capo, the worse the problem, in my experience. I use a capo a lot, so I'm only too familiar with your plight.

My advice would be to check the intonation first. Adjusting the action and/or the neck may help as well. In other words, I'd bring it to a good guitar tech and tell him your problem. He'll try all of the above and isolate the problem.

Having said all that, the guitar preset in my V-Sam is really sweet. It sharpens and flattens in all the right places.

Oh ya..........a wound G will also help the capo problem. An unwound G and a capo do not get along very well at all.

Tim Harr · From: Dunlap, Illinois

Make sure you have the "Guitar" (GTR) preset dialed in on the VS II.

OR get your guitar's intonation checked.

Mike Fried · From: Nashville, TN, USA

As big of a strobe tuner fan as I am, the tuner won't help fix the cause of that problem. Jumbo frets and light electric strings make a terrible combination for use with a capo, and as was mentioned, plain third strings are especially bad. Unless you change those factors (lower the frets and/or use heavier strings), you'll have to retune when you use a capo, no matter what kind of tuner you use. Do make sure that you'e using no more pressure than necessary with the capo, too, as it's the pressure on the string behind the fret that pulls it sharp.

[This message was edited by Mike Fried on 25 September 2006 at 05:50 PM.]

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

I use the capo a lot too-- somebody passed along this tip and it works for me. Assuming a)your guitar is in tune *before* you put the capo on, and b) after the capo is in place, you hear (or the tuner tells you) that one or more strings is sharp-- DO NOT touch the tuning pegs. Instead, take each string that's out of tune between thumb and index finger, and wiggle it from side to side a few times. Most of the time this will restore the proper amount of slack to the string and it will return to pitch.

As Chris said, too much downward pressure from the capo will throw the strings sharp. Adjust the capo so that it's clamping down hard enough to avoid string buzz, but not a lot more.

You may also be making things worse-- stretching too much of the string under the capo so that it goes sharp-- by capoing so close to those jumbo frets. Try setting the capo at least 1/4" behind the fret. (This may not be the answer but it's worth a shot.)

The problem with tuning while the capo is on
is that once it comes back off, the guitar is frequently (yep) out of tune, so, again--

1) guitar is in tune to start 2)capo is adjusted for medium pressure at most 3)capo is positioned correctly 4)manually wiggle back to pitch any strings that have gone sharp, to avoid tuning again once capo comes off

.......hope this helps.

--Steve

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

From what you're saying, the guitar is in tune before you put the capo on. If your intonation at the 12th fret is way off, it could be intonation. So first check your intonation. But I'll bet you're pulling the strings sharp with your capo. If you crank your capo real tight with giant frets, you will pull your strings out-of-tune if it's in-tune without the capo.

Think of it like this - without a capo, a string goes straight across between the bridge and the nut. If you pull it down with the capo by putting a lot of pressure on the string and it has a long way to go down to the fretboard - as with real tall frets - it will pull the string noticably sharp because you're measurably lengthening the amount of string between the bridge and the nut due to the angle from horizontal that the string now makes with the fretboard. You can see this using the law of cosines:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/lcos.html

Where does that extra length come from? The string has to stretch lengthwise as the string is pressed down and the string now makes a downward angle from the horizontal. A degree or two adds a few thousandths to the length of the string, and it goes sharp from the extra string tension. This is the principle of getting vibrato by varying the downward pressure on the string behind the fret.

Another thing - if you tighten up the capo right behind the fret you're on, it even pulls the string tighter when you crank it down. Put the capo halfway between the tuned fret and the lower one. Use the minimum pressure you need to get it stable without rattling. Get the capo on straight, across the fingerboard.

I have played guitars that had such high frets that it was very hard to capo without pulling the strings sharp. But they were giganto-mondo tall frets. Or try an Yngvie Malmsteen Strat, on which the fingerboard is scalloped between frets. Just push down behind the fret and see how sharp it gets - to play a scalloped-fret guitar, one needs to use a very light fretting touch. And forget about a capo on one of these.

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

Thanks a lot guys. I carried my guitar to the music store I bought it from about 2 months ago. The tech checked the intonation, and he did do some adjustments, so I don't think that's the problem. I have jumbo frets on my Tele so the tech told me to put my capo right on, or almost right on the fret. Since ya'll mentioned the capo being to tight, that just might be the problem. I'll try and loosen off the capo some and try tuning my guitar again and see how I come out. I'm using #9 strings on my guitar, would it be better to go to say, 11s? Do 11s bend easy? I like to do a lot of bending. Thanks again

Terry

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Mullen RP D10 /8x5 / Nashville 112 x 2 / American Tele and Fender
Hotrod Deville 2x12's
Thank God for music.

Dennis Wallis · From: Arkansas

Try using a good quality ELASTIC capo. You can adjust the amount of pressure by placing the different holes on the pin that way. A regular capo has too much tension in most cases. The elastic ones seem to work better especially on electric guitars and they are easier to slide to another position if u need to change keys too. Make sure you get a good one that has several holes in the elastic so you can set the tension to just enough to do the job. I think Dunlop makes this kind. That the type I've been using for years.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I like .011-.050 or heavier sets on some guitars, but probably not on a Telecaster I'm using for twangy country stuff. I can bend them OK, but to my tastes, they don't give a slinky enough sounding bend for that stuff. Still, I can imagine that a .009-.042 set might give trouble going out of pitch - it doesn't take much pressure to bend them out of pitch. But let me say that if I have a guitar that is set up correctly and put the capo on correctly, I can generally work with .009 sets OK on a Tele.

Still, I generally use a .010-.046 set on Strats and Teles. They generally call .010 sets "Regular" light or slinky gauge, where .009 is usually termed "Extra" light or slinky. .010-.046 sets are generally more stable, tuning wise, and still bend pretty easily and sound pretty slinky. Especially if you have big frets and are used to bending a lot - if you keep the action down fairly low, they should bend pretty easily.

Of course, if you increase the string gauges, you might have to tighten the truss rod a bit to keep the neck from bending concave upwards, as well as reset the intonation. It's also possible that the nut slots might not be wide enough for the bigger strings - that's a likely possibility if you move to .011-.050 or heavier, probably not so much a risk for .010-.046.

But of course, I can't say anything for sure without checking out the guitar myself. In addition, an awful lot of this setup stuff is strictly personal taste. You might find that the heavier strings are just not "twangy" enough for you. There are always tradeoffs. Heavier strings might be the greatest thing since canned ham, or you might hate 'em. You might want to talk to the tech who just checked it out for you. Tell him what you want, see what he says.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

On the notion of elastic capos - fine if you like them, but IMO, there's nothing like a Shubb. On the good Shubb capos, there's a set screw on the back that sets the pressure. It's the most adjustable of any I've ever used, and also the most precise - IMO, of course.

The standard Kyser capos have a single tension, set by a powerful spring. I have found they often pull lighter-gauge strings sharp. But you're not using a Kyser. I see no reason why you can't adjust the tension anywhere you want it using one of the high-quality Shubbs with the tension set-screw.

One issue - does the curvature of the capo match the curvature (radius) of your fretboard? Shubb makes several different types, and you should use the type that most closely matches your fretboard's side-to-side curvature. If those curvatures don't match pretty well, one needs to crank down the capo tension to stop certain strings rattling, which could pull the other strings out of tune.

I use the curved Shubb capos with my Fenders - but mine have old-style fretboards with 7-1/2" radius curvature. Some of the more modern Strats and Teles fretboards use less curvature - something like 9-10" radius curvature. I generally prefer the flatter curvature acoustic guitar capos with fretboards in the 10-12" radius curvature or greater range. Same with Les Pauls, which also have less curved frets.

Think of the curvature like this - the radius number is the radius of a circle whose edge has the same amount of curvature as your fretboard and frets. The higher the radius number, the less curvature in a constant linear side-to-side length of fret/fretboard. On old-style Fenders with 7-1/2" radius fingerboards, you can clearly see quite a bit of curvature in the frets. On some of the more modern design Fenders and most Gibsons, Martins, etc., there is some curvature, but they are quite a bit flatter.

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Terry-- Dave and Mike's comments confirmed my suspicions-- your tech was wrong about capo placement. Position the capo away from the jumbo frets. See if a set of .010s will work better for you...I don't think you're gonna enjoy bending .011s after those skinny .009s!

--Steve

[This message was edited by Stephan Miller on 25 September 2006 at 09:21 PM.]

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Yep. The Kyser capo will eat the fret behind it in time. They are almost always too tight.

The Shubb capo with the adjustment knob will do the job. go only as tight as you need.

It will save the frets, and stay in tune.

The Peterson GTR temperment works very well if all the guitar players use it.
If there is a piano in the group, be sure that A above middle C hits 440 on your tuner.
If not, adjust the Peterson.

Hope this helps

Ron

[This message was edited by Ron Randall on 25 September 2006 at 09:31 PM.]

Joseph Meditz · From: Sierra Vista, AZ

I have an Am Tele too and found that with .009's even an open E chord easily went out of tune unless I kept finger presser extremely light. I moved up to .010's with a wound G and there was much improvement. And FWIW, I agree with your tech in that the capo, or your fingers for that matter, should be close to the fret wire rather than in the middle of the fret when playing.

Joe

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

Ok thanks guys, I do use a Shubb, so I can adjust tension, so that's where I'll start. Along with goin to 10's and a wound G.
I can play without a capo, and I do in most chords, it's the 3 flats, and 5 flats that I prefer using a capo in.
I'll try the capo in different positions in between the frets also. Thanks

Terry

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Mullen RP D10 /8x5 / Nashville 112 x 2 / American Tele and Fender
Hotrod Deville 2x12's
Thank God for music.

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 26 September 2006 at 09:44 AM.]

richard burton · From: Britain

Allow me to make an Off-The-Wall suggestion:

Tune your guitar to a semi-tone lower than standard, ie, Eb.

Make sure it is in tune with the capo on (put the capo on the first fret, and tune it to standard E)

Don't take the capo off at all, and all will be well

David Deratany · From: Cape Cod Massachusetts

Troublesome tuning problems sometimes are caused by the nut, or zero fret, being off a bit. To check this try putting a very light tension capo on the first fret and see how things are with the bridge an octave away and adjust as necessary. If none is needed there, your nut is off, as distinguished from your being off your nut.

I have also found that with lighter gauge strings, just pressing the string down with even the slightest extra pressure will raise its pitch. Hook up a tuner, tune the second fret to 440 pressing down only enough to get the note, then press harder and see the needle go crazy.

But then, as a friend of mine, the late Eddy Murray, repair guy for E.U. Wurlitzer, in Boston, once said: "If you want to play in tune you have no business playing a guitar".

LARRY COLE · From: LANCASTER, OHIO, USA

Most capos do not match the curviture of the neck. That means that some strings are being pulled down more than others. A capo also holds the string down between two frets and your finger holds the string down between tow different frets. That is stretching them even more. The lighter the strings the more the pitch changes by streching them. If you can find a Sabine capo, the edge of it sets right on top of the fret and you don't have the strings being pushed down between the frets.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12,SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60,GIBSON LES PAUL CUSTOM,YAMAHA L-10A ACOUSTIC,ROLAND JW-50 KEYBOARD,G&L AND BC RICH BASS'S

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

Ok guys, problem solved. I went to the church last night, tuned my Tele, got my wife to hit an Eb chord on the piano, and it was right on without capo on.. So, I backed off the adjustment on my Shubb so it would fret at Eb just tight enough so there was no buzz.
bingo! My wife hit an Eb again and it was right on with capo on fret 3. I appreciate all you guys for your help. I've been playing 6 string guitar for over 40 years, but still don't know squat about the mechanics of one. That's why I turn to you guys. When I change strings, I'm goin to 010s and a wound G that should help even more. A BIG THANKS again!

Terry

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Mullen RP D10 /8x5 / Nashville 112 x 2 / American Tele and Fender
Hotrod Deville 2x12's
Thank God for music.

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 28 September 2006 at 11:55 AM.]

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