Tube Gear - getting the perfect tone.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I sometimes spend hours tweaking my preamp gain, eq and output levels to get the elusive sweetness that comes from the proper balance of preamp distortion and power amp crunch + eq....This is particularly difficult for the blackface chime that has just the right amount of hair, picking dynamics, yet clarity...

The fact that the gain, eq's and output volume all interact makes tweaking difficult, and the time requirement is simply not acceptable in the live work I'm now doing.

Does anyone have a methodology to speed up this tweaking process?

Oh yeah, this is for my electric six string guitar.

[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 06 June 2006 at 10:27 PM.]

Mark Fasbender · Posted 13 Jun 2006 10:57 pm

Simplify your rig. That usually does it.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Terry Gann · From: Overland Park, Kansas

"Tone Tweaking" needs to be done at stage volume. So, the family needs to be out of the house and the rig opened up. I've done it a hundred times, adjust the knobs in the studio for what seems a great sound, only to try it out on a gig and find it's too bassy, bright, effects heavy, etc. Seems to be more a matter of human ears, cause I've had the same issue with all-tube gear as well as POD modeling amps.

Mark Fasbender · Posted 21 Jun 2006 11:29 pm

Dave......... Lotsa parameters also include lotsa circuitry which is a tone killer IMO.
I also think real amps (as opposed to preamp power amp rack setups) usually sound better. The best way to get a B face tone is to crank up some kinda Bface amp. Of course you then have to play and articulate well. No setting(compression etc.) is gonna put snap in poorly executed playing. Takes away the tonal balance and ones control of the dynamics. I see lots of tele wannabees try that. It is a poor substitute for playin crisp. I am not refering to anyone in particular, just making an observation. I see it all the time.

Tom...... Take a deluxe reverb to a gig sometime and pop it up to 6 or 7 and set the tone controls and go. Yee Haw
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Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 22 June 2006 at 12:32 AM.]

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

Recently, I downsized my guitar equipment (but not the weight) and now run my Tele into a Fender Twin 65 RI. I have a Mesa Boogie Bottle Rocket for overdrive and a Keeley Compressor. Sometimes I use a small amount of delay. While this still may seem like a lot, it is really simple to get a great tube tone.

I agree, you need to set things at stage volume to get the true "playing live' tone.
The Twin just made everything so much more simple with set up and teaking.

This is all subjective and there are a lot of excellent tube amps on the market but the Fender Twin is a great amp plus very easy and quick to get a great sound even without using pedals. Just about every guitar sounds great in it too as well as accepting many different kinds of effect pedals. You never have to wonder if you have enough volume for the gig either...

Good luck on the endless quest for tone...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

A guitar, a cord, a Klon, distortion+, Phase 90 and a Vibroverb.

There's an old saying about the "Swiss Army Knife" amps...originated with some of the Fender Mesa knockoffs: "Every tone but the right one".

Simply, tube amps have an organic, breathing quality that is inherently not possible in solid state circuits. It is somewhat emulated, but it has a false feel to it.

Take a good tube amp...the smaller for the venue the better, which is why many guitar players hav more amps than guitars...crank it up, and drive the sound from the tone and volume controls *on the guitar*. It makes a huge difference...and a positive one...in the tone.

You want crystal-clear clean tone, solid state is fine. You want tube amp tone - get a tube amp. Or a closet full of them!

;-)

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

What Jim said...

Not that I currently have a tube amp, but that's another story.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Uhhh

Let the tube amp warm up for about 30 minutes. No joke. Then tweak. Every room is different.

Before the tweak time, be sure the pickup(s)are set up right. The strings are in good shape. Get a straight and short line to the tube preamp. Then add efx in the efx loop.

I see lots of six stringers with forty-eleven stomp boxes before the signal ever reaches the tube preamp.

hope this helps

Ron

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Then add efx in the efx loop"

Most classic or custom-built tube amps don't even have effects loops.

Also - you only want to use time-based effects in the loop - ie phasers, flangers, delay etc. OVerdrive, bost and fuzz need to go infront of the preamp - mainly to smack the first preamp tube hard. That's the whole idea. hey are almost useless in a loop.

Mark Fasbender · Posted 23 Jun 2006 10:20 pm

Both volume AND the room enviroment are factors in getting a tone. Even if you set your tones opened up at home they are likely to be different at the gig. Thats why I like the simple guitar-cable-amp approach. When I get to the gig I only have to adjust 2 or 3 knobs to get a killer tone. Usually just a couple of chucks on the guitar and I'm happy. Im also real picky. I can get a tone real fast on a twin or a deluxe or any fender tube amp in good stock working order. IMO, fender amps are the standard. Guitarists are always asking how I get such a great tone. When I show them they often think Im pullin their leg. These guys usually keep on using their toys and ruining their tone. Anyone can get a killer tone in this way,they just cant get it in their head that less really is more. Of course, if you need lotsa distortion for what youre doing and lotsa effects for the material you play as is necessary some times then I know very little about that approach. I still maintain that for me,3 or 4 great tones off the guitar beats a dozen or more so so tones off of effects and such. No contest.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Not only will the tone vary w/ the room and then soundcheck vs. full house, but the tone you get by yourself is totally affected by the other players you are surrounded with-so to me, tweaking at home is only half the battle.

Don't forget fresh filter caps-I used by Deluxe Reverb on a gig recently and could feel a change in the response-and I know I'm overdue, so it's back to the shop. 10 years is the common wisdom for cap changes.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"10 years is the common wisdom for cap changes"

Absolutely. This gets neglected by so many players it's ridiculous. I've replaced may a power transformer at $250...plus another $100 for the cap job...because someone didn't do a $100 cap job. It's like changing tires on a car - a maintenance iteem that HAS to be done.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 24 June 2006 at 05:00 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

consistency.

Are we sitting/standing in the same position ?,are we placing the amps behind us in the same position ? are we maintaining the same TONE settings at each gig ?

The amps are pretty much doing the same thing each time out but we may be hearing something a bit different if our ears are not part of the positioning process.

I think this senario is true for any amp and rig, not just the ones with glass around the heaters. I do use a Fender Tube amp and of course the PV 400...

One thing that I have done this past year was to raise the amps off the floor with one of those little Tuperware 6" step stools at Wallmart($2.49) at every gig. I believe this has helped with the consistency from gig to gig..

I am thinking I have not moved the tone knobs on any of the amps in a very long time. I hope they still move

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 June 2006 at 05:41 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 June 2006 at 05:43 AM.]

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

As said above, there a lot of factors that affect the tone of an amplified sound. But the biggest one, in my experience, is the humidity. (the more humidity, the duller the sound)

Aside from the fact that the transmission of high frequencies through the air is hindered by high humidity, most speakers use paper cones which absorb some of this moisture. In a dry environment, the paper can vibrate better at higher frequencies, thus sounding brighter. But when the humidity is up, all the tweaking in the world won't get those highs to sound "right".

On a indoor gig, a sound check gets you in the ball park, but when the crowd arrives things usually drastically change...and it's not always simply all those bodies...it's largely the very sharp rise in humidity. If the sound problems were only caused by the bodies in the audience, the soundman would most likely be the only one having fits. (of course, a really good soundman knows how to compensate for these things) The guys on stage would only have to make very minor changes to their sound. But, with a large group of people filling room, you get high humidity (of course, air conditioning helps some, but not as much as you might think)

I'm afraid that the humidity monster has fooled with many a great performance and has caused many musicians to pull their hair out and run to replace their "crappy" equipment.

As I said, many, many factors affect our sound...just don't forget that good old Mother Nature can play some nasty games with our ears, too.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

quote:
The fact that the gain, eq's and output volume all interact makes tweaking difficult, and the time requirement is simply not acceptable in the live work I'm now doing.

Does anyone have a methodology to speed up this tweaking process?

1) I tend to set the midrange first, and HIGH (6?), then do my tweaking from there. Midrange is what sounds good to the human ear, and the other things are gravy on the biscuit. However, this is highly influenced by the other members of the band needing to have some midrange for themselves.
2) It's really helpful to keep a little notepad of previous settings that you have had time to dick with extensively, in various rooms.
3) It's really helpful to hear your rig from thirty feet away, let a band member play it or if you have to (and can) tape stuff at a distance.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Thanks for all the comments. For those who suggeset going to a simpler system - unfortunately, I'd then need three amps to get ALL my sounds (a very diverse band).

I have positioned my amp in my living room on the amp stand I use at the gigs. Hopefully that will move me closer.

Also noticed, that voltage fluctuations from day to day seem to change the balance quite dramatically, too. Maybe time for a hi tech power bar with voltage regulator.

I turned all master volumes wide open, and am just using the gain to adjust relative distortion. Seems to work best that way, less mud. Must be the power amp that creats the chime, not the preamp, which maybe for frequency shaping (not harmonic creation) on original blackface gear.

[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 28 June 2006 at 02:37 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Must be the power amp that creats the chime, not the preamp, which maybe for frequency shaping (not harmonic creation) on original blackface gear."

It's acutally the interaction of both. Remember, there is no MV on BF/early SF amps, so using any amp with a MV you HAVE to dime the MV to get your tone close...but there's always too much stuff in the way - extra circuitry that sucks tone.

Just curious - what's the "diversity" that would make you need three amps? Hehehe - and what's wrong with 3 amps? Heck, playing guitar if I didn't really know the venue well I'd take at least 4 - better chance of one being the right one for the room.

But in most cases, one really good sounding clean amp can be complemented by the right effects and cover a lot of sonic/stylistic territory. Yoiu just have to steer clear of multi-effect units and "condiment" effects - Digitech, Boss, Ibanez, etc etc etc. It's usually the more unique effects by smaller makers, plus some vintage pieces, that combine well for really good tone.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

First - I don't use effects of any type - flange/phase/delay/reverb - excluding amp distortion. They all sound gimmicky to me, even reverb when you have natural room reverb. I don't like to water down a perfectly good raw guitar tone.

I have about 5 distortion pedals of all kinds, but none are as good as my tube preamps for waveshaping. (BTW - the PEavey Hotfoot Distortion has won my heart for the best distortion pedal ever). But I still don't use any pedals, and don't intend to.

I've been fooling around with tube gear for a couple of years - and after buying and trying near everything that was highly acclaimed (ADA MP's, MB Studio Pre, etc_- I found that the two preamps that sound best to me are:

a) Mesa Boogie Formula Pre (clean channel) w/ single coils. If I get the settings "just right", I can get this hot buttery clean sound that gives me tele spank, - and if I up the guitar signal by 6 dB, I get heavenly blues tones off the neck p/u.

b) SOHO QTR-1 (ala Kittyhawk Quattro)for every great rock tone from the Beatles to AC/DC to Santana.

The posts have taught me a few things, and I'm having better luck dialing in now than ever.

One aspect I'm still struggling with is the interaction of overdriving the tube power amp (which gives treble and presence) - and the treble eq control. That takes serious skill to balance those off against each other. Furher - opening up the mid gets a nice thick second harmonic going that makes some of the more traditional treble knob philosophy go out the window - due to the overlap in frequencies that is occuring. I'm currently finding my best sound with mid about 75% open, and treble cut slightly, with a bunch of poweramp overdrive to add in some presence. Whereas with the mid cut, you end up using the treble to enhance pick attack, but have a thin, often zinging sound as the treble frequencies start getting distorted more than their fair share.

Tube gear is tricky. There's this whole chicken and egg thing about it. I'm just trying to figure out which knob I should be turning when something is wrong. Eg. Do I use the gain to increase treble/presence via power tube harmonics, or use the mid to add the second harmonic in the treble range, or do I use the treble to get more zing ? [The only way I've figured out the foregoing is through "hours" of patient listening and playing).

Perhaps I'm looking for an easy answer or a system...

[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 28 June 2006 at 08:08 PM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

If I'm using someone else's amp that is doing things I don't understand, I will usually turn the mid up to 10, and the treble and bass off. Then back the mid down enough to remove that 400 - 1.6K "boom". This varies a lot from amp to amp and room to room. Then add in some bass - not much, 3 or 4 on the knob will usually do it. Then and only then will I start adding treble, hopefully I can get the mid and treble to work together to get some singing out of the critical 1.6 - 4K upper midrange without creeping into the evil treble zingies. If that doesn't work, I throw in the towel and plug in a graphic equalizer and fix the whole mess in about 30 seconds.

"Chimes" are hard, to me that describes a sound that takes clean upper-mid headroom, which is sort of contradicted by overdriven "roar." To get both takes two amps, or some channel or EQ switching arrangement that rearranges your headroom so that the bass and lower midrange don't rob the upper midrange. Your big tone-freak rock stars like Eric Johnson and Steve Morse have overwhelmingly gone to multi-amp setups to get what they want (Brad Paisley hooks up six amps these days....)

I don't really believe there's such a thing as (a little) "good" circuitry, or (too much) "bad" circuitry, I just believe there's circuitry that gives you what you want, where you want it. And, circuitry that gives you what you don't want, where you don't want it - good tone is largely subtractive, in my opinion.

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

Tom...I see where you noted that you've turned all master volumes to 10.

I'm no expert but it seems that if you do this, it may put stress on the power tubes and wear them out quickly.

As I said , I'm not sure that actually happens, it seems like an amp tech told me that a while back. Maybe one of the Fourm members has more knowledge on keeping tube amp volumes wide open.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I almost always run my master at 10. (Running the master too low leads to the possibility of distortion, which is much harder on components than a louder, but clean signal.)

Lefty · From: Grayson, Ga.

Seems like tube amps are hit or miss.
On a good night nothing can touch them, but the next night, different venue, who knows?
I love them, and have many.
I believe solid state is more consistant, but some people just cannot tolerate the sterile sound, although they have come a long way.
I changed one preamp tube in my Dual Professional last night, and it made all the difference in the world.
I believe the variance of the tube quality these days has a lot to do with it.
Lefty

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I will tell everyone a secret.

I replaced the Peavey Scorpions in my Amp with........the speakers from the Nashville 112, and I have tone to die for.

Covers the Country/Rock/Blues spectrum of my band better than my compatriots Fender Hot Rod Deville, or his Deluxe....In fact, I don't think I could ever listen to a Scorpion again, after A/Bing it with the N112 speaker.

Shhhhhh ! I think I hit the jackpot....!

(PS. If anyone knows what speaker the N112 speaker was modelled after - I'd love to find out and buy the real McCoy.)

[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 09 July 2006 at 07:43 PM.]

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