new wiring better than old wiring?

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

hey out there in tone land...i'm wondering how much difference new wires make as compared to old wires inside an amp? also i'm wondering about wiring and guages to produce the sweetest tone? i'm guessing that a thick wire is best, and, the less wire inside the amp the better, as that could lead to tone sucking...any ideas?

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Not an area of expertise for me but here are a few things I do know--cheap wire (Radio Shack, eg.) can oxidize--definitely use good quality stuff. Some of the wires in your amp carry significant current--don't under-spec the gauge for these leads. But when not necesaary, the larger gauge would be overkill--I'm not sure if there is a downside to using too-large gauge---maybe just a tidiness and cost issue.
A significant issue is wire routing. If all wires were just running the shortest distance between two points then the lead dress would be a bloody mess. So wire routing needs to be a combination of efficient and practical/neat. Some later (SF) Fenders were known for careless lead dress--some circuit modifications were specifically to address oscillations & squeals that were actually the result of sloppy wiring. Adding caps & resistors (with arguably negative tonal results) was easier and cheaper than upgrading the production quality level.
Disclaimer----this all is 'knowledge' accumulated via reading & studying, not via workbench experience.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

thanks jon, i'm just going thru all my stuff and looking for the best possible choice for each part, and when i was thinking about the wires, i decided to post and see what comes. i put a matched quad in my twin (jj teslas) quite a difference from before, but my favorite thing (these changes take time) is the addition of telefunken preamp tubes, i'm definitely headed in a direction of tone heaven, at least to me. if anyone out there questions the tone from telefunken preamp tubes, just buy them, you won't be sorry. i'm wondering if there is a type of wire that is preferred in hi-fi circuits? or is a wire a wire? i see your comment about the radio shack wire...does gerge l's make a wire for the innards of a twin? i know i love their cables...thanks in advance

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Cool on your progress so far. And cool on the tubes. I haven't done a whole lot of NOS tube questing. An expensive endeavor.

Another factor re: wire is the use of stranded vs. solid wire. I won't touch this---I have read stuff along the way but I haven't absorbed it. I expect that there are others here with good info. But bear in mind that some folks (like Brad and Ken, I think) are probably in Dallas.

[This message was edited by Jon Light on 10 March 2006 at 01:53 PM.]

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Chris, I wouldn't spend any time changing out wires in your old amp unless something shows signs of abnormal heating or oxidation.

There are different grades of copper wire, the latest buzz in HiFi dircles is "oxygen-free" wire but the jury is still out as to whether or not the improved electrical qualities justify the increased expense, it certainly won't make the kind of difference that changing tubes or speakers will make.

Solid wire of a given AWG has lower resistance and potential for oxidation than stranded wire but is also less flexible, making it more susceptible to damage from rough movement and vibration.

As for wire routing, this is a big deal when it comes to noise and oscillation, in this case neat and tidy is not always going to perform the best, sometimes the best sounding harness is pretty shabby looking, due to bending the individual wires into paths that avoid electro-magnetic trouble spots inside the amp.

David Spangler · From: Kerrville, TX USA

My observation is that vintage amps (Fender) used solid wire with cloth insulation. The newer amps that I am familiar with all use stranded wire with plastic insulation. Solid wire is a little easier to shape and fit in the solder connections than stranded.

I recently built a High Power Twin amp kit from WeberVST. It was supplied with the vintage solid wire but insufficient quantity. I work on computers and have a pile of dead power supplies. These each have a bunch of stranded wire with plastic insulation. So I used that wire instead of the solid/cloth. After a year, the amp works perfectly with no sign of oxidation or other problems. Vintage snobs tend to favor the solid/cloth wire. I will be building another kit in the coming weeks and intend to use the solid/cloth wire in it as I believe it may be easier.

What Dave G said about routing. I have read that bending the wire so that it is routed down against the chassis is desirable. Long runs of parallel leads is not desirable. The solid wire seems to stay in the shape it is bent into better than stranded. But it seems to me that the outer surfaces of stranded wire which actually conduct would be greater than solid and, thereby, have lower resistance if same material. Just my 2 cents.

------------------
David Spangler

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The type of wire (stranded or solid) has no bearing on the electrical charactaristics. Obviously in wire "size" does matter to be appropriate for the current and voltage that it must carry.

Stranded wire is better for items subject to high vibration, movement of the wire, etc. For most amplifier wiring applications solid wire is perfectly acceptable.

Being an old "Ham" radio op that has built many "homebrew" items, and many Heathkit kits most of the point to point wiring was done with solid wire.

Routing of the wire can be an issue, especially with AC wiring (e.g. the filaments on tubes) and twisting the input wiring (with a ground wire) or using shielded wire helps the low level audio.

One thing to consider, many with tube amps want the "old" Fender sound. If it was good enough to produce the "old" Fender sound why do something different? and not get the "old" Fender sound.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I've never heard a bad player with a good tone.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

i realize what you are saying donnie, but my way of going about things is not the average person's way, i do things because i am interested in finding answers, not because i aim to be tht next BE, but for my own curiosity. my main thing is to satisfy myself and to get my setup to where i am stoked whether i am playing a chromatic run or a nice chord pad. i want it to sound great no matter what i do. for me, being a good musician is to understand every part of what i do, including the wiring inside my amp. i agree, you can't buy good tone, but you can make your chances of sounding really nice increase with a little research and understanding.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

There are those that MUST only have certain items such as gold plated connectors, certain type of cable for their guitar cords, etc.

Those of us that are "old time" techs just sit back an laugh every time someone comes up with the "gold connector" thing. The only thing they are doing is spending more $$ for connectors - it isn't buying them anything. Gold is a very good conductor material and if you had something such as a printed circuit card that was installed and left installed and untouched for a long time the gold plated connectors will tend to eliminate connection problems. But, with, for example, a guitar plug that is plugged in for a short time (or even a month) and then unplugged the gold plated connection really isn't going to do anything and eventually the gold plating will wear off from use.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

knock a guy for trying to understand the subtleties...i see how you guys are...the beauty is found in the details...

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Chris, I hope I wasn't "knocking" you. Just trying to point out some of the misconceptions that some have.

Obviously if you are going to build or "rebuild" something you can do whatever you want. There are basic principles that need to be followed but there is also a lot of misinformation around and you need to try and sort the "fact from fiction".

Have fun with your project but just remember some of the comments that Donny and I have made.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

believe me i listen to everything i am told, but it is the attitude that i don't care for. i'm not sure i'm ready to take on the rewiring of an entire amp, or pay for it to be done, but that doesn't stop me from asking about my questions, at least not this last time. i'm getting tired of being dissed for being naturally inquisitive. imagine that you started off with a steel and amp, then looked at every thing in the signal path for quality and overally tone enhancing characteristics. then changed all the stuff that wasn't up to snuff so to speak, including the "petty" things that most people don't care to do. i would be willing to bet that the resultant sounds in the improved setup would be noticable and desired. most guys are content to just play thru a guitar and amp and call it a day. with everything i do, i tend to go to the nth degree in getting it to be the best i can. one thing is for sure, i'll be sure to think twice before posting again, which is a shame because this is supposed to be a forum of like minded people who are weird enough to want to play this sort of contraption in the first place. details matter.

Blake Hawkins · From: Florida

Chris,
I don't believe either Jack or Donny was dissing you for asking the questions.
So please don't be offended.
The answers to your questions are covered
with great care and seriousness in the publications: "Audiophile" and "Stereophile."
In their archives you will find comparisons between different types of wire, connectors, transformers, capacitors and resistors.
Here is the Stereophile website which also has some forums dedicated to audio perfection. http://www.stereophile.com/
Blake

[This message was edited by Blake Hawkins on 11 March 2006 at 02:24 PM.]

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Chris, I don't see anything posted on this thread that would be "dissing" you in any way. Everything posted was to try and help you or point out certain things.

I am very particular about my own equipment but sometimes we can go to the point of diminished returns or to the point that doing something "extra" will have absolutely no affect, not even cosmetically.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

okay, i rescind my comments. thank you for the link to the article, i'm sure it will help. as far as going to the point of diminished returns, that is what i'm asking these questions for, so i can avoid that. this was literally a question that came to me out of the blue while driving, so i decided to ask. i just know that wires do make a difference when you consider the difference between george l cables and a fender cable, but i think that its due to the length and capacitance. if you add up all the wire inside a typical amp, i bet you end up with a few feet, and if the wire is not the best, some signal is lost. if you go to steve kimock's web site, you will find a link to his gear and his comments about his gear. one of the things he talks about is his input into what would become the two-rock octal amplifier, which if you didn't know, is one super sounding amp. one of the things he claims that led to such a sweet sounding amp is the elimination of as much wire inside the amp as possible, and getting rid of excess points inside the amp that could take away signal. now, this didn't happen overnight, but anyone who has stood in front of one of these amps can attest to the clarity, sweetness and detail they produce, even when played by a total newbie without years of experience. the word stunning comes to mind when i think about the tone.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Hey Chris. Don't you be backin' down asking questions, bud!! You may not realize it, but there are probably dozens of silent readers that have the very same questions, but are too shy to ask them....hell, even some pros could fall into that category. We all learn from each other and NOBODY knows it all.

Besides that, it makes old codgers, like me, THINK about new possibilities and the reasons for the accepted standards. (with no disrespect meant to anyone) The older we get, the more comfortable we get with the way things are...call it a rut...but we'll argue to our dying day that we're not in that rut. ha,ha.

Well, guys like you, who ask the obvious, odd, or strange questions that some of us think aren't worthy of answers, stir up the old gray matter. I personally like your questions, and those of all the others' who do so. Must I state the old cliche' again..."There's no such thing as a stupid question! The stupid question is the one that's never asked!"

This forum is a veritable gold mine of knowledge and I'm proud to be a part of it....BUT supressing curiousity must NEVER be tolerated. I have great respect for all levels of ability and knowledge because I see the potential for new ideas to be born out of the exchange between the old garde and the new.

I don't even get tired of reading new posts about tuning preferences...I always learn something new.

So, let the questions continue! Old, uninformed, inane, simple, complex, dumb, or whatever else you may call them.

All this is just my humble opinion...flame me if you must.

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

This is the third in a series of articles in a column called Bad Science. It's a regular feature in The Guardian newspaper, and it's the scourge of the modern snake oil salesmen. It started with a advert advertising a £47.00 kettle lead, which was said to improve the tone of CD players.
Now read on:-
Bad science

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blindingly obvious: hearing is believing

Ben Goldacre
Saturday February 4, 2006
The Guardian

Folks are the same the world over. Now, as far as I know, I'm the only person in this room who's had violent threats - in writing - from angry alternative therapists. If that's not true, of course, I'd love to hear your story, but either way, I feel pretty well placed to assess the emotional temperature behind the stranger end of popular belief.
So let's talk about the high end hi-fi industry. I wrote about their very expensive power cables last month, ranging from £30 to a whopping £1,800, for what is, after all, a kettle lead to connect your stereo to the three pin power socket in the wall. The various manufacturers claim that their cables will filter out radio frequency interference in the power cable, and that this will improve the sound. I doubted this, and the outpouring of bile that was subsequently vomited in my direction (references on badscience.net) surprised and delighted even me. But what was most interesting, to students of this stuff is that the angry outbursts came primarily from the natural constituency of Bad Science readers. Several were deeply wounded. Homeopathy was one thing, they said, but this time, I had clearly got it wrong.

And that was when I started to notice the frightening similarities between the thought processes of the alternative therapy fans and the hi-fi freaks. Both make an appeal to personal experience, as the highest and most valid form of measurement; both use mystifying, scientific-sounding terminology in their publicity material; and both use the appeal to authority.

But the most striking parallel is the widespread notion in the hi-fi community that blinded trials - where you ask listeners to identify a cable without knowing if it's cheap or expensive - are somehow intrinsically flawed. This is exactly the card that the alternative therapy community have been playing, almost since blinded trials were invented.

I give you the editor of Stereophile, a respected hi-fi magazine of 33 years standing. He's talking about blinded tests on amplifiers: "It seems," he says, "that with such blind listening tests, all perceived subjective differences ... fall away ... when you have taken part in a number of these blind tests and experienced how two amplifiers you know from personal experience to sound extremely different can still fail to be identified under blind conditions ..." Now I'm getting worried. Here comes the money shot. "... then perhaps an alternative hypothesis is called for: that the very procedure of a blind listening test can conceal small but real subjective differences." Ouch. "Having taken part in quite a number of such blind tests, I have become convinced of the truth in this hypothesis." What voodoo is this? If there is a difference to be heard, then you will hear it.

The manufacturer of my expensive power cable has assured me that it will have an impact on the sound of an expensive CD player, or a cheap one, and that it will affect optical outputs as much as normal phono outputs. So I propose, as a pilot study, to place, on badscience.net, two files, clearly labelled, one recorded from the CD player powered by the expensive cable, one powered with a normal kettle lead. There will also be a third file, and you can vote on which is which. You can do what you like to identify them: burn it to a CD, listen with headphones, examine the raw data, whatever. But the catch is this: it's a palaver, and I'm not going to bother, if the hi-fi buffs are just going to bleat about how unfair the test is. So this is your chance to participate in the design of an experiment. Post your thoughts on badscience.net. I want everybody to be happy.

Taken from:- http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,,1702086,00.html

Check it out
Chees
Dave

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Chris, there's nothing wrong with being interested in the "details", and I certainly apologize if you think I've offended you in any way. I'm merely trying to help you avoid some of the mistakes I've made, and avoid spending money and (much more valuable) time on things that make no real difference, or things that make an insignificant difference. You have some preconceived ideas about components, and you come on to an open forum and request opinions or guidance. Then, when someone doesn't agree with you, you get indignant and threaten to not post as often.

Rick Jolley · From: Colorado Springs

About ten years ago, I bought a $40 Monster cable for my Fender Jag-Stang. The guys a Pro-sound told me that it would last forever, that it transmitted high freqs better than any other cable, etc. etc. "Besides," they said, "if anything goes wrong with it, EVER, bring it back and we'll replace it."

Heckova deal, except that I wss going down to Belize, about three thousand miles away from that store! Besides, I was playing jazz on the cable, and I didn't need any more highs!!

OK, so it WAS the best cable I've ever owned. Worked flawlessly for about eight years, and finally quit, and there was nothing wrong with the connections inside the plugs. The problem was in the cable just beyond the plug, which flexes a lot when your playing standard guitar.

The moral is, all wiring eventually deteriorates. All cables eventually go bad. Certainly, gold plated contacts won't change that. (This cord had gold-plated plugs!)

My bottom line is, buy lots of cheap chinese cables, and always have one or two spares.

And in my repairs, I usually use solid wire. The quality of the soldering joint is a lot more important than the wire itself.

------------------
Rick Jolley

(Rick Zahniser/Rickey Zahn)
Dekley S10 3/3, Session400LTD
http://belizenorth.com

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

I've been playing guitar for 45 yrs. I cannot hear all these supposed differences in equipment that "experts" hear. I also paint and draw, and the art group I am affiliated with does the same equipment thing. You have to have Wallis paper, Shmoenke(sp?) pastels, etc. etc. Reasonably good artists(musicians) can make great music(art) on reasonably good equipment.
All those little "details" is a fun hobby, sometimes I get caught up in it myself, but isn't most of it really about marketing? JP

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

yeah donnie, i was referring to our love of the instrument as our main similarity. i realize we are all different and coming from different places and also that there are people who would gladly rip a dude off for a bunch of money. that is why i come here and ask for free from you guys. i'm someone who spends practically all of my time either listening to music or playing it, and the nuances are where i get off generally. i can usually tell a player i'm at least generally familiar with by thte first notes he plays, and can tell differences in tone when my fellow bandmates do something and don't tell everybody, but that being said, i just changed my tubes in my amp but only one other person i know has ears to notice, and has said so to me. imagine if an amp company like webb or evans or somone decided that the details didn't matter and for economics sake decide to use the cheapest components they could in order to maximize the profits, i think it is safe to say that the tone would be sacrificed. we also know from brad's posts a while back about the changing of certain caps inside a webb amp and how it helped an already great sounding amp, so this is what i'm getting at in a sense.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I suspect any amp on the market could be improved - but how much? and for some would it really be worth it? But, that is a personal issue and if someone is happy with the changes then it's probably worth it.

However, one of the sad things is that many old amps, e.g. ones made in the 40's, 50's and 60's many times used poor quality or poor tolerance components, compared to the higher quality components available today. However, if nice new components are installed the classic tone may be gone and the results undesireable.

On the other hand "audiophile" components can make a difference and in some a major difference. But again, if you want a BF Twin to sound like a BF Twin you have to be careful with new components or the BF will sound like a new "sterile" reissued Twin.

Tubes can make a major difference. More so today with the tubes that are available but even back in the 60's and early 70's when I was working as an amp tech. I, and many other tech's, were partial to RCA tubes back then, especially for 6L6GC's and 12AX7A's.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

well put jack...i totally agree...

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Law of Diminishing Returns: you gotta pay a lot more for just a little (perceived or real) improvement. I'll keep the extra $ in my pocket, thanks.
A good guitar cable can be made at a reasonable price. It's not $0.40 and its not $400. It's somewhere in between. I've bought them from many places, and the cheapies are just that, cheap, plastic, and they fail early in the lifecycle, if they last at all. A good solid "disassembleable" plug, with a good strain relief, and a reasonably shielded coax, with good center conductor, should be adequate in my book. The molded products I have found to fail early. You oughta be able to buy or make a 6 foot long cable with two 1/4" Plugs for less than $20 that will do the trick in 90% of the cases. If this isn't true, somebody convince me otherwise.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 12 March 2006 at 07:25 PM.]

Forum Index > Electronics		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic