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Topic: ??? for Paul Franklin |
Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 25 Sep 2004 12:57 am |
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On the new Alan Jackson CD all of the instruments are right in your face. The steel sounds like the speaker is in an isolation booth with hard surfaces and the mic is 3 feet away from the speaker.
Can you explain the recording techique used?
Larry Behm |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2004 5:56 am
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Chances are, that's the sound engineer's preconceived notion of how a steel guitar should sound.  |
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Heiko Aehle
From:
Bretleben GERMANY
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Posted 27 Sep 2004 2:49 pm
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| If Paul would play through 3 closed doors or behind a big wall, his sound would always improve the complete CD ! Paul, thanks for such great steel guitar work on the new Alan Jackson CD ... I live on the other side of the world but we all here appreciate so much your excellent work! |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2004 6:11 pm
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Larry, you've got mail. I thought you might enjoy the picture I sent you of Paul's rig at one of the studios.
Tony[This message was edited by Tony Dingus on 27 September 2004 at 07:13 PM.] |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 27 Sep 2004 8:15 pm
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| Hey Tony, how about posting it here for the rest of us to oggle over ? |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2004 5:47 am
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Paddy, if I can figure out how to post it I will.
Tony |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2004 6:17 am
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Tony; if it's alright with Paul and you send me the picture in my email, I'll post it on here for ya.
sshawaiian@austin.rr.com
Ricky |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 28 Sep 2004 7:05 am
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I have not heard it, but conjecture that this can be caused by 2 or 3 short delays and a bright EQ.
I know Paul often records direct into tube preamps, and not with an amp, so this might explain the sound environment.
Also the current radio environment demands on mastering houses,
push the mixers to REALLY squash the mixes into a very tight dynamic range,
to cut through on radio.
Fishing for any and ALL possible radio revenue.
I would love to see the rig pic too.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 September 2004 at 08:10 AM.] |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2004 7:59 am
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I should be more specific about the picture. There's no close up of his rack to see what equipment he has in it.Larry's post was about speaker and mic placement. I'm sorry if I misled anybody. The picture I've got was from a post a year or 2 ago. Ricky, I'll send it to you when I get home this evening.
Tony |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 28 Sep 2004 9:37 am
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quote:
"Chances are, that's the sound engineer's preconceived notion of how a steel guitar should sound."
That statement could possibly have some validity, except John Kelton tracked/mixed the record, and he damn sure well knows how it's supposed to sound. I have always admired his work...
"quote"
"I know Paul often records direct into tube preamps, and not with an amp, so this might explain the sound environment. "
Not to be so presumptious as to speak for the master, but Paul hates to record direct...
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 28 Sep 2004 1:58 pm
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| I remember reading a recent post by Paul where he stated that he almost always uses an amp in the studio !!! |
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Franklin
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Posted 30 Sep 2004 1:44 pm
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John,
You can post for me anytime. I agree with you 100% about Kelton, He knows what every instrument is supposed to sound like and he is my favorite steel engineer.
Not sure where this recording direct is coming from. I have always hated recording direct and avoid it like the plague. Thankfully, I haven't had to record direct on a major release since the early eighties.
Larry,
Great question! On this session, John Kelton had to literally pull a rabbit out of his hat to make it happen. Our gear was in customs when Keith found out Alan had changed his mind about recording in the Bahamas and wanted to record in Miami.
Instead these dates were recorded at Criteria studios in Miami and John didn't have any prep time to make this a more perfect environment. The big room at Criteria has two iso booths. John put Brent's amps in the main room with the drums, acoustic piano, bass, and steel. He built a foam rubber (16" thick) cage around his amps and solved one problem. The studio couldn't come up with enough foam rubber to build another one. So my speakers were put in the concrete block entry way to the main room. It was about 3ft by 15ft with apprx. a 20 ft ceiling, and it was the only isolation option left to John. My speakers were in a concrete room with four sets of 2" thick metal doors, covered with several blankets to try to dampen some of the reflective verb. Natural studio echo/verb chambers are made similar to this. What happened, was the speakers were closely mic'ed, the verb was abundant and was reflecting everywhere even through the blankets he used to cover my speakers.
I'm sure John couldn't get rid of the reflective sound recorded verb/echo causes in the mixing stage enough to dry the steel up in your face. Instead it sounds the way a live steel guitar does when we deal with reflective clubs or halls.
The fiddle and acoustic guitar shared one booth and Alan sang in the other. Pig had to replace all of the piano parts right after we got the track on each song because of too much drum leakage. I like the tone on this CD because it sounds exactly like a live steel tone and I'm a big fan of live tones on all instruments.
Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 30 September 2004 at 02:49 PM.] |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 30 Sep 2004 4:12 pm
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Paul thanks for the feedback I knew I was on the right track with regards to how "hard" the sound was and the reverberation.
Great playing by you my friend. When do we get the tab. 
Larry Behm |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 1 Oct 2004 8:56 pm
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| Paul do you always use speakers or speaker cabs when you record?For some reason I was thinking you ran from your rack to the board for most sessions.It's been almost 10 years since we've talked.I know things change.Regards..bb |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 1 Oct 2004 11:41 pm
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Hi Paul,
I guess I msiread something in a post about your Mesa preamps, and on the Dan Tyack recording.
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| My speakers were in a concrete room with four sets of 2" thick metal doors, covered with several blankets to try to dampen some of the reflective verb. |
About as horendous a speaker environment as I can imagine. I would have over ALL objections still had a direct line for this, so at least some way to salvage the live tracks from the bad acoustics.
Since the sound is being commented on now, this would back up this concept for me.
All that damping did nothing vs the standing waves, and the sound of the small room is the waves ringing. Unless those waves were nulled, all the padding in the world would only roll off some of the highs.
A real world live club gig is much more natural sounding, and also has people and other things diffusing the sound in many cases.
But in poor clubs can have the exact same bad sound until the club is packed. In which case the PEOPLE block much of the negative sound transmision issues.
What did you record with when you did Rose Mary Lou's session.
My Little Dance, Tennesee Breeze and House of the Rising Sun?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 October 2004 at 12:46 AM.] [This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 October 2004 at 01:13 AM.] |
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Franklin
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Posted 2 Oct 2004 3:33 am
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Bobby,
My rack houses the power amp and preamp. The speakers are seperate and can be isolated into the next building when needed. This allows me to have my amp controls at my side with my speakers isolated. Been doing this since 91. Before that, I used two Nashville 400's ("Too Cold At Home" sound). In the mid eighties I did alot of direct on the early Bowen dates. On Dan's CD I used a speaker clean and dry for a contrast to his steel sound.
David,
I prefer an imperfect amp situation to the cold sound of a direct signal and I have been in a multitude of these situations throughout my career and I have exhausted all of the known direct options. I also disagree that there is a difference from the sound that room gave me with the concrete block bars or concert halls I've come across. The Mel Tillis live album used a direct along with the amp. At the mixing stage we hated ALL of the direct lines for the guitars fiddles and such.
It all comes down to personal taste. I hate the way a direct signal plays with the dynamics of the attack of the string and I realize others opt to record direct for the simplicity of isolation, That's their preference, not mine. A speaker in the worst situation allows the note attack to breath before going through the mic to tape. A direct signal simply goes straight to tape and bypasses the ear/mic. There's no substitute that compares to the air and mic in front of a speaker. Having air around the note is the way our ears hear musical instruments. I miss that variable when its taken away...Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 02 October 2004 at 08:27 AM.] |
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David Wright
From:
Pilot Point ,Tx USA.
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 2 Oct 2004 11:28 am
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No disputing what David W says.
If your saying you don't like a direct because you get no pick / string / speaker interaction I can buy that.
What I think happens is that an amp's speakers create a much larger dynamic range to play with in relation to picking attack,
so a much larger sence of dynamics variation is available to you during tracking.
But I have salvaged tracks otherwise unaceptable,
by sending dry back out to an amp in a now free room, and re-recording. With the freedom of placing mics and many possible acoustic spaces and speaker angles not available during the original rythmn section or band tracking.
There are ways and there are ways.
It's nice to know more precicely your preferences.
Thank you.
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Franklin
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Posted 2 Oct 2004 1:04 pm
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David,
I recorded an album with John and Keith in Toronto where there was no iso for any of the electric guys. John did exactly as you suggested by running Brent and me back through our amps when we got back to Nashville to salvage a real amp sound over the direct tone. You seem to be underestimating the knowledge of our engineers. Also running through even the best direct boxes alters the natural sound of the instrument which is why I avoid it consistantly.
Paul
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 2 Oct 2004 5:49 pm
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Hey David, have you heard the record? Sounds great to me--I don't think a direct would have made anything better, IMHO.
As an engineer, I will go absolutely as far as it takes to get what the player and/or producer wants to hear. When you deliver that respect to the players, they will return that in trying what you might like, too (after you have exhausted their options, of course ). I have learned many things from players over the years that I might not have tried (and many of them have also learned from me, too).
Many players are bringing their own mic/pre/rack setups to session these days, basically bypassing the engineer totally. With the advent of so many ProTools based studios with many times great operators with less traditional engineering chops, this is great and a time saver. If I am unsure of a situation, I bring my own mics and Neve pres and hand them my sound with no hassles on a pair of XLR.
When I recorded Paul recently, I asked him where his sweet spot on his speakers was, dropped a couple of 421's there through some 1081's and voila, instant tone. I was also amazed at how well he can alter his tone to fit the track via just listening through the cue mix. Working with such pro sure makes me look good and my life easier ...
Just some ramblings after a long week ...
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 4:59 am
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Paul you said :
"You seem to be under estimating the knowledge of our engineers."
Respectfully no not a bit. It wasn't mentioned,
and seemed to be excluded as a method,
so was worth commenting on.
I would assume they do know this technique among many others.
But I was looking for reasons why it was being excluded.
And it seems this was used at least once.
"Also running through even the best direct boxes alters the natural sound of the instrument which is why I avoid it consistantly."
Here now appearing a reason!
Any thing in the signal path alters the sound, it is finding the best practical balance of pros and cons,
by the PROS, that is the engineering / production job.
Any thoughts on the final mastering compression for radio affecting your overall sound as well as the records you record on in general.
And I take for granted you work with total pros.
John M. as I stated in my original post, no I have not heard it.
The most recent I have heard is the collection with Remember When.
But was postulating some possible / propbable reasons based on previously stated feedback,
in anticipation of hearing facts.
Not saying a direct would have made it sound better. Just that if I couldn't create a good room sound, or it was questionable for the mix later,
I would have definitely left myself that option if tracks allowed.
I definitely appreciate a player who comes totally prepared to create his/her best sound from stem to stern.
It has been a pretty rough week too here.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 October 2004 at 06:01 AM.] |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 3 Oct 2004 8:12 pm
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Paul - Would I be right in assuming the balanced output on the back of a Nashville 1000 would be pretty similar to going direct to the desk because your not getting the speaker/mic interaction ? I was going to try this on an upcoming session, but would appreciate your observations. Thanks
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Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
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Posted 4 Oct 2004 9:40 am
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Paul,
Do you have a mic preference in the studio? Or do you leave that to the engineer/producer? I ask because mics can be very different from one another and can color the tone nearly as much as the choice of speaker cabinet.
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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 04 October 2004 at 10:42 AM.] |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2005 9:17 am
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