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Topic: Fender Twin Reverb with 15" speaker for PSG? |
William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 8:42 am |
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If you'd asked that question in 1965 almost everyone would say that the Twin retrofitted with a 15" JBL would be the primo steel amp. When the original Session 400 came out in the 70's, all that changed. Then, as now, there are some diehard tube freaks who feel it is worth the weight and headroom issues to play through a tube power amp. They DO SOUND WONDERFUL, but they are very heavy and can lose their punch at higher volumes, compared to a Tele. If you put a Tele through a Twin onstage next to a pedal steel through a Twin, the Tele WILL WIN THE GAME OF 'VOLUME WARS'. The steel just requires a boatload of headroom to stay clean and the Tele quacks like a 900 lb duck at high volumes.
My personal preference is the old germanium transistor amps -- like the ORIGINAL Session and LTD 400 amps. If I want tube sound, Brad Sarno's Black Box adds a lot of that warmth to an amp that delivers a lot more clean power than a Twin can provide. My 1970 Standel Custom 15's are my favorite steel amp of all time. Two of them can handle the highest stage volume my ears can stand. If it needs to get louder than that and micing is not an option, they'll have to find a different steel player.
Just my opinon.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 10:44 am
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There have been several threads on the Custom 15 in the past. I believe someone said that the Reissue Twin is based on the old black-face Twin. And since the Custom 15 is essentially the Reissue Twin with a 15" speaker, I assume the same is true for it. That means it should sound a little warmer, but will break up sooner and have less clean headroom than the silver-face Twins of the '70s. However, a number of Forumites say they are happy with either a Reissue Twin or a Custom 15. If you can mike them, there should be plenty of volume and unsurpassed tone.
I sometimes play loud rock clubs without amp mikes. I had a 135 watt SF Twin that played as loud and sounded much better than my 200 watt Nashville 400. But neither of these would be a match for the volume of a 300 watt NV 1000. Neither was loud enough for some unmiked gigs. I now have a 180 watt Super Twin in a head cabinet (60 lbs) that always gets the job done with fantastic clean tube tone.
Regardless of the amp, a regular guitar without a volume pedal will always sound much louder than a steel with a volume pedal (unless you play with your volume pedal bumping maximum - then what's the point of a volume pedal?). So Larry's comparison with a tele is true for any amp, even his two Standels. I'm sure he is right that some solid state amps sound better than others. But do even the best of them have the tone of a good tube amp? The rest of the guitar world overwhelming prefers tube tone. Steelers have been willing to forego tube tone to get lighter, more reliable, less expensive (except for Standels) amps with lots of clean headroom. It just takes more cost and weight to get the same headroom with tubes. But, oh, the tone! |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 12:58 pm
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| Quote: |
| But do even the best of them have the tone of a good tube amp? |
You betcha! I didn't say the Standels are the best TRANSISTOR amps I've ever played through.
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| My 1970 Standel Custom 15's are my favorite steel amp of all time. |
That's what I meant.
This is all really subjective, but I've played through Standel tube amps (25L15) and they sound marvelous at studio volume but can't do it at even small, loud club levels. I refuse to haul TWO TWINS, which is about what I figure it would take to fill a larger, loud room. My solid state Standels are 170W apiece and two of them are plenty loud, even for outside gigs. The speaker piece is really important as well. The Altec 418B is the best steel guitar speaker I've ever played through (and I've played through them all -- more or less).
When I first started playing steel I used an old Fender tube amps -- everything from a Deluxe to a Twin -- and as soon as the volume started to escalate I was buried. I bought one of the first Session 400's and sold the Twin the next week. I've gone back to tube amps a couple of times with no luck -- conclusion was the same -- great in the studio for a vintage sound, esp with the push-pull, but not enough giggin' oomph. The Standels (which typically sell for $400-600 WHEN YOU CAN FIND THEM) were originally jazz guitar amps and were built to be CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN. (and they are) When they do break up a bit, it's very tubelike -- not harsh like a Nashville 1000. A Black Box can tame any rough edges that are left pretty well, while adding just a little tube compression that I really like on certain tunes.
YMMV
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 1:51 pm
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interesting and true, tube amps 'crack' so beautifully, but is a liability for loud pedal steel gigging. i just wasn't sure if Custom Twin had enough headroom to run with the solid state NV400, even though we all know that 200WRMS (NV400 200WRMS power correct?) is more than 80WRMS (or is the Twin 100WRMS with 4 6L6?).
i usually eitber play behind a good PA (mic'ed) or record, so the Custom Twin would most likely work for me. my old Billie Tele i built (semi hollow body with 2 SD pickups (hot and cool rail dual coil SD) and Tele single coil at neck (5 Pos Strat wiring) would be sweet breathing thru the Twin Custom though!
i thought i knew every amp made since the '60s, but i must have sleep through Standels. tell me about the Standels, i'm not plugged into them. i assume its a germanium power final stage AB or B push-pull? you say its got headroom forever!
yep, steels live and die by available headroom as do FOH touring PA systems. as a rule i put an amp 2X+ the rated continuous power of the enclosed speakers. on one PA (4 way) that runs (6) Peavey DTH 218 Subs (each cab has 2 x 18" Low Rider BW drivers rated at i think 1000W continuos each) with (6) Peavey 18000G bridged, so each DTH218 has one 1800G bridged amp (1800W continous into 4 ohms when bridged, i think my numbers are correct). with that system, i can make a kick drum push and snap (with proper gating) that you can feel in you gut 100+ yards back! anyways . . .
later,
Billy
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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com
Derby DB10 E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A
Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG
Summer 1969
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG
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Steve Hitsman
From:
Waterloo, IL
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 3:05 pm
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I'm not sure I understand the concerns about headroom with the Twin. I use a reissue in which I've mounted a reconed D130. I don't think I've ever played with the volume set higher than 3 and I'd have to go a LOT louder than that before it would begin to break up. Besides, don't most players mike their amps anymore? I do except on small gigs where I don't need the extra volume anyway. I think the popularity of the 112 sort of points up the fact that volume isn't as important as you might think. If you want it louder, mike it and turn up the PA.
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Mark Herrick
From:
Bakersfield, CA
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Posted 4 Sep 2005 6:09 pm
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I thought the Twin Reverb was designed to be a clean amp. Isn't that why Tele players use them for country music? I think you would have to be cranking some really serious power to get distortion out of a Twin...
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 4:08 am
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| Anyone ever connect a 15" to the ext speaker jack? Will it distort as well or take enough of the lows from the C6 neck to get away without mikeing through the PA? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 4:44 am
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| Not at any volume, Larry. The RI Twin just doesn't have enough power to push extra speakers when you're looking for big bottom end like you need on C6th. |
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Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 4:57 am
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Thought as much but, never tried.
Thanks for the reply. |
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Jim Peters
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 6:07 am
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| We are also talking about front end as opposed to power amp distortion. Steel pickups are much hotter than 6 str. pickups, and will overload the front end of most tube amps,even at low volumes. My SF deluxe is set up for 6 string, smaller clubs, it is awful with steel,even at low levels. I could change the preamp tubes, and the speaker, and put solid state rectifier, and it would be better for steel,but why bother? a twin has the same problems to a much lesser degree, but you still have to set it up for maximum headroom,and they are soo heavy! I use and love my NV112 for steel,it weighs the same as my Deluxe.JP |
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Paul Honeycutt
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 6:40 am
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"yea, it would be rather loud. Neil Young with Crazy Horse often used a Twin. some of Neil's guitar ditty's are fairy nasty, but as you say also many country pickers with Tele's & Strat's use Twin or Super Reverbs (actually i prefer the Super Reverb over the Twin for country style picking.
later,
Billy"
I have a picture of Neil Young when "Old Black" was lost where he played a Flying V through, Two Twin Reverbs, two blond Showman heads pushing 1 X 15" cabs AND two tweed Deluxe's. He has a look on his face that looks like he's saying, "Why can't I get my tone?"
I'd guess there was some serious volume there.
Back to the subject at hand, my all time best clean tone was a Twin with stock speakers plus a 1 X 15" with a JBL D-130. That was with a guitar not steel, though. Actually the steel player had the same rig, but had D-120's in his Twin. He sounded pretty good as well. This was an outdoor show with no microphones on the amps.
I'm currently putting a Dual Showman Reverb head in a combo cab with a single 15" EVM-15L.
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 8:42 am
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Paul sounds like you dig N. Young. Neil with Crazy Horse is one of my most listened to artist, or should i say the two albums 'Everyone Knows This Is Nowhere' and 'Zuma'.
i read that Neil had or still does, a customized Twin with 'motorized' knobs?!? this may not be fact but i read it long ago. i bet that was a costly project, given the technology years back.
also what i really dig really about Neil is that he NEVER slowed down with rock and roll! he tasted about style of musics out there. old Neil still rocks on stage with his shirt (over his T shirt) un-bottoned and sleeves rolled up. i'm 54 so i know he's got to be pushing 60 i guess.
peace,
Billy
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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com
Derby DB10 E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A
Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG
Summer 1969
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 9:20 am
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| Hi Billy . I have three steel amps . Two Nashville 400 and a Fender Vibrosonic that i bought new back in 1976 . It came with the ''Orange '' J.B.L. 15'' Speaker . This amp has the better sound of the three but is a lot heavier . There is something about the ''tube'' sound that a lot of players are going to these days . Not to mention Mr Lloyd Green . He is using speakers that my buddie Rick Johnson made for him . I think Mr. Ricky Davis is also using Rick Johnsons cabinets with a Fender tube sound . Rick just made me a two peice cabinet that he put one of my Nashville 400 amps in . The bottom is bigger than the whole Nashville amp and seems to have more bottom end . One of these days i may have Rick to make me a two peice cabinet for the Vibrosonic . I still love that sound ! . Good luck . Best regards , Gary . |
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 11:24 am
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hey Gary and anyone,
do you feel the Twin Custom 15 would stack up against the VibroSonic you have now in terms of tone and volume?
i myself greww up on tube amps and perfer them also especially when using guitars. with PSG use, requirements of course are different.
with todays' markets and with moderate cost, what would you use in terms of a tube sound for a PSG? i am using a NV400 with a TubeFex at present.
thanks,
Billy
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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com
Derby DB10 E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A
Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG
Summer 1969
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 11:54 am
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Larry, the Standels are so rare, I've never heard one, much less had a chance to try one out. So I can't comment on their tone. However, I am skeptical of settling for "tube like" solid state tone, when I can get the real thing very inexpensively. I admit two Twins is a bit much to cart around. But it sounds like you haven't tried a Super Twin. For those who want lots of clean tube headroom, these are available regularly for less than a Twin. It's about like two twins in volume, but in a head cabinet is 60 lbs. I pair it with a single heavy duty EV 15, or two JBL D130s.
Steve H. and Mark H., there is a hugh difference in volume between quiet country gigs on the one hand, and big dance hall or rock club gigs on the other. A big dance hall would typically have mikes for the amps. But small rock clubs like I play in, often don't have enough mikes for the amps. The regular guitar players get all the volume they need by cranking small amps like Fender Vibroluxes and Hot Rods. But I have found that a single Twin or a NV 400 was not loud enough to keep the steel from being drowned out. And that was with a silver-face 135 watt Twin. The reissue and Custom 15 are 80 watts and black-face dirty, and so have much less clean headroom. If you can mike your amp, it is a different world, and almost anything will do as long as it can give you enough stage volume to hear yourself in the stage mix. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 1:02 pm
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Billy, that's actually an old tweed DeLuxe amp that Neil young has. A little box fits on top, with little electric motors actually turning the knobs on the amp. I would assume that they're gear-driven, bu Neil's pedalboard has several switches that control the box. Pretty cool setup.
EDITED TO ADD----If a twin ain't got enough power for a pedal steel, then why is Peavey selling so many Nashville 112's????[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 05 September 2005 at 02:03 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 2:56 pm
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Stephen...an 80-watt anything is rather marginal for live C6th pedal steel. If you follow the threads closely on the 112, you'll see many 112 owners (even Mike Brown) readily admit it won't do big venues, and won't replace their Session 400's or N'ville 400's. Those who play the 112's in bigger venues use 2 or more of them. I believe another post said Paul used 2 of them at the I.S.G.C., and you know that show's well miked.  |
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William Johnson
From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2005 3:24 pm
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Stephen, good to i know i didn't dream that up, as i never saw Neil's rig but thought it was a twin. thanks for the info. Neil is old rocker like mnay of us. he's still an analog tape guy as his home studio is severely analog. i'm not quiet as slow to change as i truely see some advantages for good A/D converters in the digital domain, but funding is keeping me from ALSO having a 2" 16 track analog Studer in my studio. hell, i even use a digital speaker management system on my 'A' sound reinforcement rig! it would be scary to think 'What if George Martin and The Beatles had a quality 50+ track digital studio?'!
to maybe partialy & correctly reply to the Peavey 112 comparision to a Twin, it partly lies in available CLEAN headroom in both the front-end (preamp) and the power amp section and especially in the power supply reserve, i.e. power transformer saturation and filter capacitor discharge times which are critical in maintaining 'continuous' available power (volts & amps) under huge INSTANTEOUS and CLEAN input signal demands that PSG's require. it's not always how many watts it has, its how fast and long it can maintain a given power output. in ONE way, its kinda like the way i compare PA amps at a glance: if i can pick it up with one hand, i don't want it (because power transformers and filter caps are heavy).
anyways . . .
later,
Billy
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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com
Derby DB10 E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A
Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG
Summer 1969
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG
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