1964 Fender Vibroverb... for steel guitar?

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Has anyone ever tried using one of these amps for pedal steel guitar? I recently picked up this original 1964 Fender Vibroverb for my guitar gigs, and possibly for pedal steel guitar. Naturally it sounds fantastic for regular guitar, but for PSG I’m not having much success with it. At home the steel sounds fine, but on a gig, even at moderate volumes… anything over “5” turns to mud. I guess this is to be expected with a 40 watt tube amp, (2)6L6. It has a 15” speaker(CTS). The amp was just serviced so I know it’s performing as it should. Has anyone used one of these amps for pedal steel guitar?

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[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 04 August 2005 at 04:03 PM.]

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Sweet amp! What a nice snag!

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Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Doug .. never owned A Vibroverb, but Supers, and Bassmans of that era were fairly similar. Had many of those.

they sound sweet juicy and wonderful at home... but geez I needed three of them to get enough headroom for steel at gigs... even the 100 watt Twins of the later 60's and early 70's had headroom problems.. I currently use A Showman.. again just not enough headroom with a pedal steel.. Sound is fantastic, but by modern standards, old tube Fenders lack the headroom, unless you get a 135 watter with the ultralinier transformer. Or a 180 watt Super Twin.

I use ONLY Fender amps, but I always struggle with headroom... bob

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Thanks for the responses... yes, I guess I'd have to patch a couple of these together to get the clarity I need for steel. This month I'm playing some town concerts and fairs where sound reinforcement will be provided. I'll try the amp at one of these shows and see how in goes.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yes, I've played a 'borrowed' one a few times at lower-volume shows. I liked it at low volumes, but they do turn to mush for clean country-style steel if they're turned up. It was great for the bluesier stuff, though.

Some other ideas: 1) I have never particularly cared for the CTS speakers for steel or jazz guitar. Perhaps a nice K-130 JBL would clean it up some. I doubt it would really be enough for a large stage/loud gig, but might be better for a small club gig. 2) Choice of tubes can affect these as well. Some power tubes have more clean power potential, and I often replace the front-end preamp tube from 12AX7 (gain around 100) to a lower gain tube like 12AY7 (gain around 70), 12AT7 (gain around 60), down to 12AU7 (gain around 20). I just experiment with tubes to figure what works.

ps - very good to meet you on my recent trip home to Mass.

Rich Gibson · From: Pittsburgh Pa.

I converted my 66 super into a vibroclone.(kept the original stuff,of course)The most important upgrade/change was a beefed up output transformer-Twin reverb is best.Also your speaker is an issue.I have D130F in mine and it works great.I guess it ultimately depends on how loud you need to play,but this works well for me.My steel gigs are Jazz oriented-brush drums,upright bass- but i have used this amp at several steel jams with good results.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

The preamp tube sway is a great idea for steel. If it were mine and I wanted to keep it for my use I would do:

1- A Twin Reverb output transformer! More iron gets tighter and fuller bass! Done it to two of my five Vibroverb clones. The transformer will yield the correct impedance match for 2-6L6GC tubes to an 8 ohm load

2-Put in a Weber copper cap rectifier. Just a plug in replacement!

3-Put in an EVM-15L or the clone Delta Pro by Eminance. JBL is too spikey for my ear. EV moves the air at low frequencies with ease, even at low volumes, A great full sound due to the deep basket,

4-Filter caps and all bypass caps replaced. All tone caps replaced with Sprague Orange drops. Replace all plate load resistors with metal film resistors (gets rid of any snap, crackle, pop noises these can make)
5-Reverb mod to add reverb and tremolo to channel one. One wire move, very easy mod and non-invasive!

6- Change slope resistor on channel one to 56K, better voicing for steel guitar. That leaves the vibrato channel stock Fender for guitar or those Buck Owens tunes!

David Doggett · Posted 5 Aug 2005 6:12 am

Doug, you probably know that is the Holy Grail of blues guitar amps - Stevie Ray Vaugn's favorite. As such, I would be reluctant to mod it for steel. Pretty much everything you do to clean it up for steel will ruin it for guitar. I have my own Vibroverb clone, a silver-face Pro Reverb with a 4 ohm 15" speaker. It is 60 watts, and, being a SF, it plays cleaner. But even with all that, it just doesn't have the clean headroom for pedal steel. Back in the '70s when I started, I had a black-face Super Reverb, and it had the same problem. Furthermore, it is the same size, and almost as heavy as a Twin or Vibrosonic, which have much more clean headroom. I would keep a Vibroverb unmoded and just use it for guitar. And if that is impractical for you, that thing would sell for very big bucks on EBay, and you could use the bread to get whatever you want.

I don't play regular guitar on gigs. But if I wanted to play anything other than clean jazz or country on the same amp as steel, I would use a SF Twin, Dual, Vibrosonic or Super Twin for steel, and use stomp boxes or something like POD XT to get the crunch and overdrive for regular guitar.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree with Ken that these changes would probably make the amp more suitable for steel. I should have mentioned a solid-state rectifier plug-in. Just make sure that your filter caps are fresh and rated high enough in voltage, since the solid state rectifier generally increases the plate voltages a bit. I also agree, the normal channel reverb add + slope resistor changes are reasonable, I did those on my BF Deluxe/Vibrolux Reverbs - not invasive at all and easy to change back. Speaker choice is very subjective, these are all much better than the CTS for my tastes.

However I would probably wouldn't do the Twin Reverb transformer replacement unless it was a drop-in replacement that you could change back if you wanted to sell the amp. If you drill holes in the chassis, it will devalue the amp significantly. Original Vibroverbs are worth a lot these days. I believe someone makes a drop-in replacement like this - if so, I agree that makes sense for steel, but only if you're pretty sure you want to keep the amp for a while.

I probably wouldn't change to metal film resistors, just my preference. If the old ones were bad, I'd replace them with the same thing.

One other thing that I do to BF/SF amps like the Deluxe/Vibrolux Reverb and up (but NOT the Princeton Reverb, and check to make sure this Vibroverb doesn't have the Princeton-style tremelo, I don't have my circuit diagram books with me - this change would smoke your output transformer). I generally replace the Tremelo Intensity pot with a switching pot which disconnects the tremelo circuit. I keep the old parts, of course and put back to stock if I sell. This change increases the preamp gain a bit, but it's biggest effect, to me, is to beef up the sound a bit. Combined with lower gain preamp tubes, I like the sound better. To try this without a lot of work, you could just disconnect the wire which connects from the preamp to the tremelo circuit input and see if you like it. I'd talk with your tech before you try this.

My earlier suggestions were some simple ideas to get an idea if you can use the amp at all. If you find that some trivial, easily reversible mods don't get you in the ballpark for steel, I seriously question doing more significant mods. When ultralinear (late 70s SF) Pro and Twin Reverbs are available so cheaply, it makes sense, to me, to cash out of the expensive Vibroverb - you can buy half a dozen of the others for the same $$$.

If I was going to 'Boogie out' a smaller Fender amp to get more power in a small package, I'd pick a SF Deluxe or Vibrolux, and by all means, tear up the circuit, add a new output transformer, even power transformer, use 2-4 6L6s, move to a high-power speaker, whatever. I see SF Deluxes all the time for $600-800, and it's not expensive to get a cab made that would fit a 15" speaker.

Just saw David D.'s post - I was writing while he posted. Clearly, I agree with him.

Grant Johnson · From: Nashville TN

I own one of Ken's Vibroverb Clones and use it for Pedal Steel all the time... It does need to be miked in most live situations. And I am having a SF twin head fixed up to plug into when I need more power. The twin transformer cleans the bottom end up nicely... It will not have the clean capabilities of a modern steel amp, but I like a bit of "dirt" when I open up the volume pedal!

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www.bigsmokey.com

Brandin · From: Newport Beach CA. USA

I'm with Dave. A solid state rectifier should
make a big difference. Just make sure you have your amp on stand-by when you turn it on.

GB

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I wasn't aware that Fender put a CTS speaker in VVs. When I bought mine, I had to choose between a Jensen and a JBL. And that's all I've ever seen in these amps. Since I was buying that amp for 6 string, I went with the Jensen. Cuz it sounded way better for guitar. Probably a mistake, as the amps with the JBLs get mo money now. I ended up using my '56 Pro for guitar, and the VV for steel. But my band had a very good sound system, and I never turned either amp over 4. There's just not enough headroom for steel on the VV to play without micing it ('cept at home).
I sure wouldn't alter a thing on this amp! Way too valuable and sought after And if I gigged with it, I wouldn't take my eyes off it for a second, much less leave at a club overnight! If you don't mic it, I really don't think it's going to work out for you. And, as such a collector's piece, I wouldn't take it out of the house. I don't take mine anywhere. JB

Rick Johnson · From: Wheelwright, Ky USA

If that amp sounds like mud, I'd
say a trip to the tech is in order.
By not having fresh caps and tubes
in any tube is a waste.
It doesn't effect the value of the
amp as long as its not hacked up. I have too many amps but I sure
would like to have this one!!!

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Rick Johnson

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Just a note aboout Stevie's amp! He used an EV speaker, not a JBL and the OT was changed! That is why the new Vibroverb has a heavier OT, those were some of the mods he used. I will not put carbon comps in for plate loads unless requested by my customer. They are prone to make the noise I stated! Plain fact, there are better resistors available now days. They have little to no effect on the tone of the amp. A plate load does just that, it provides a DC load for plate! Why put back in a potentially noisy resistor unless you are purist? Not trying to be argumentative, just stating a fact.

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Thanks for all of the excellent responses! A few of the early 64 Vvrbs came with the CTS speaker, which I’m not thrilled with. Installing in a replacement speaker would be no problem, and can be done on these amps without disturbing the original solder. So the original speaker w/wiring could easily be reinstalled if necessary. I put (2) 10” Webers in my 67 VLuxR club amp and they greatly improved the tone and performance.

According to this site Fender used 3 different speakers in this amp: JBL D-130, Jensen C15N, or CTS 15" ceramic. This amp is dated February 64 (NB) so it’s a very early blackface. I may experiment with changing tubes and speakers, but I’m not sure about swapping transformers, etc. I’m not all that knowledgeable about it, and this one has all of it’s original parts, untouched except for a cap job and a grounded power cord.

Dave M, it was nice to meet you a couple of weeks ago and chat about PSG. There never seems to be enough time to “talk steel” when steel players get together!

A couple more pix:

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

You are right, sir! But yours is the first I've seen with a CTS.
I wonder, was there a price difference in '64 regarding speaker choice? JB

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Ken - no argument here. Some people prefer metal film resistors in old Fenders, and others don't.

On the originality issue, however, I will argue that drilling holes in the chassis of a $3000-4000 original Vibroverb will likely devalue the amp, whether SRV did it or not. That's reasonable to do if someone is sure this is 'their baby', but on something one isn't so sure about, I just wouldn't recommend it.

Maybe I'm just a purist, but I like to keep this type of amp pretty stock. I wouldn't do anything to this amp I couldn't easily reverse. It's a bona fide serious collector piece, and those collectors like 'em clean and stock.

Doug - you're right, and I love to talk PSG. When travelling with family, I never have much time. One of these days, I'll get back to Western Mass by myself. Thanks for taking some time from your schedule to talk with me.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

I totally agree, drilling holes would de-value such a great amp! I built clones from Bandmaster Reverbs, so not an issue there!

Great thread!

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Ken - it's a great idea to clone these from Bandmaster Reverbs. There's nothing like the old Vibroverbs, and I'd prefer one set up cleaner-sounding. But the rare times I've gotten my hands on an old one, I could never bring myself to do much of anything with them, they're so pricey. There are a lot of gigs where a tricked out 1-15" Vibroverb would work for me.

Of course, my first 'serious' guitar amp was a Bandmaster Reverb with a homemade 2-12" cab and Lafayette-branded Jensens, ca. 1970 - nothing wrong with them either.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

FWIW I have one of the new Fender '64 VV Customs, and it works great for Steel with the "mod" switches flipped. It tightens the amp up and gives it some real snap. the stock Eminence they used iis a very clean speaker, BTW.

Not as much headroom as my Twin for Steel, but much better tone. The wattage difference doesn't make much difference at all in volume, which anyonw who knows amps would understand.

That being said, I prefer running the amp in stock mode, especially with my Fender 400, which doesn't smack the preamp as hard as my MSA with a Match Box. But even the MSA sounds fat through it...of course, I'm not trying to get that rip-your-head-off-with-treble Nashville tone. I like some roundness and a little grit in the tone.

So it depends on what sound you're after. If you want to clone the Nashville steel sound, it's probably not the amp EXCEPT in the studio, where it would excel. If you after a more individualized sound, it's a tremendous amp all around.

Tom Quinn · Posted 7 Aug 2005 7:56 am

PLEASE do not mod this amp. You have a very clean vintage amp that needs to be used for what it does best... play the blues. You can pick up a great Twin Reverb for a third of what that amp is worth -- which at a guitar show would be around five grand and up. And a vintage Peavey 400 -- a desirable and great sounding steel amp can be found for 250-350 dollars any day - and it will sound much better for steel guitar.

Mods are irreversible. The solder joints are part of the deal. Just be happy you have it. and as for a steel amp, it is a poor choice -- not enough power and not focused enough -- that's why it is a great R&B or blues amp...

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Okay, it sounds like the jury's in on this one: No mods. Only minimally invasive procedures like swapping tubes or speaker. Mic it for gigs. I think this amp will spend a lot of time sitting in my music room, but that's okay.

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

There is 64 Vibroverb exactly like mine on ebay now. Same month of production: NB, Feb. 64. Same speaker: CTS. Just thought I’d let folks here know. It’s not mine.

click here to zoom there.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Doug, if you drop a D130 in there, you'll probably notice a HUGE increase in volume. Also, on underpowered steel amps, I think the ticket is simply to just sit much closer than usual to the amp. But really that amp you've got there is pretty much worthless. You should let me take it off your hands.

Brad

Dyke Corson · From: Fairmount, IL USA

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