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Topic: Dynamic respons from tubes, does it matter? |
Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 13 Jun 2005 8:40 pm |
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I was out trying some amps yesterday (despite my saying recently that it's futile I do think it's fun) and yes, I do hear the much more lively dynamic respons from a tube amp, a good tube amp, than the one that comes from good solid state amps. You hit the strings harder and it answers right back.
Anyway, the test was seriously flawed since I had forgotten my slide at home (don't know how that happened) and was trying the amps out going straight into them without even using te volume pedal. I would guess that the active use of a volume pedal can change things around quite a bit.
The initial attack isn't necessarily where I want the note to be the strongest, I want to control that myself with the pedal. So, what I'm saying here is that while I can hear the difference between the amps when I'm playing in a way that I never do otherwise I'm not so sure that difference is even audible when I use my regular playing technique.
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If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 14 Jun 2005 2:46 am
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About 8 years ago I tried both the Peavey TubeFex and the Transtube Fex. The TubeFex has a 12AX7 preamp, where the Transtube Fex is solid state but operated to emulate tubes. I tried both, in a music store, with my steel and could not really hear any difference in the clean setting. I did a comparison of them with a Telecaster and did hear a subtle difference between the two.
Since I primarliy play steel I bought a Transtube Fex. If my main instrument was Lead Guitar I would have went with the Tube Fex. |
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Bill Myers
From:
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2005 4:24 am
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| Terje, what you are noticing is the responsive nature of the tubes and how they respond to your playing. A high power tube amp that is turned to low volume will lose this dynamic as well (or at least that is my excuse when I'm told my amp's up too loud). I think tone wise alot of the solid state amps have made alot of progress towards sounding very good. The problem is they lack that dynamic punch that you can control with your fingers. I also believe that the touch and feel is what allows players to really develop their tone. The difference between a beginner (like myself) and a really good player is the touch and feel that they apply to the guitar and the way they use that touch to manipulate the tone of the instrument. [This message was edited by Bill Myers on 14 June 2005 at 05:27 AM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 14 Jun 2005 5:29 am
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| Amps can sound very different without a volume pedal and with no sliding. I would never test an amp for steel or slide guitar without my usual gear. The difference between tubes and solid state is not just the dynamics. The tubes introduce harmonic overtones that add texture to the tone that is missing in solid state amps. It is less high fidelity, but it sounds less sterile. Magnetic pickups do not have the texture that the materials and shapes of acoustic instruments provide. Tubes add some needed texture (some of us think). Tubes also can "breakup" and soften the initial attack of a note, thus providing a type of natural compression that makes the playing sound smoother, but this is not as noticeable if you use a volume pedal to soften the attack. |
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 14 Jun 2005 6:28 am
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| Well, now you've got a good reason to go back and try more amps. |
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Dave Van Allen
From:
Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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Posted 14 Jun 2005 12:01 pm
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| it matters to some; to others... mmmm not so much. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Jun 2005 1:18 pm
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For me, the good solid-state steel amps (e.g., the Peaveys) sound very good for clean pedal/nonpedal steel and slide guitar, but, for me, they are trickier to play. Being a guitar player for so long, only using tube amps, I was just used to the softer attack and light breakup/compression inherent in even a clean amp like a Twin Reverb. Old Fenders are very forgiving, IMO.
But I have found, especially on steel, that if I lighten up my touch and get more subtle, the good solid-state amps have a great clean sound. If I want less attack, I have to attack it less, no relying on the amp to do it for me. I have to play around with the gain curve (output-level vs. input-level curve), no matter what amp I use.
That said, I do not care for the 'distortion sound' from any of the traditional solid-state devices. Only a power tube being pushed (or a model of that) gives me what I want. When a power tube is pushed into nonlinearity, the amp bandwidth decreases. There are a lot of things going on in a tube power amp - the signal driving the power tubes, the saturation of the tubes themselves, the output transformer, speaker, and feedback between all of these. They say 'fat tube tone', I think that's what this means, and driven tube amps do 'talk back', at least to me and many others. |
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Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 14 Jun 2005 11:05 pm
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Hm... lots of things to think about when it comes to amps. Well, well, it's fun trying them out too.
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If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Jun 2005 8:45 am
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Terje, it's my experience that tubes can have a delightful clean sound. (I'm not referring, here, to their "overdriven" characteristics.) Their sound can be smooth and wonderful, but most of their texture seems to get "lost in the mix" whenever they're used in a live situation, where there's lots of other instruments, and the usual audience and background noise.
At home, or in the recording studio, tubes may have clear sonic advantages. However, when playing a live gig, these advantages are just not noticed. As evidence, I offer that the vast majority of pro pedal steel players now use and prefer solid-state amps for their live gigs. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 18 Jun 2005 1:16 pm
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I usually agree with Donny, but I sort of disagree on what he just said. At low volumes at home, tubes sound marginally better, but ss amps sound okay. It is only at higher live volumes with a loud group that the tube sound really comes into its own for me, and ss amps begin to sound bad. There is nothing like the sound of a live group going full tilt.
In previous threads we have established that Terje does not play loud. However, even at moderate volume the tube sound seems to come through for me in a live performance. I don't believe a studio can capture this well in a recording. By the time you run the sound through a mike, a preamp, a board, and the recording process, then play it back through monitors, a home stereo system or a radio, it is hard to hear a steel in the mix and tell anything about what amp and speaker was used.
It is true that the majority of pedal steelers these days use ss amps for live performances. I think this is mainly because, at the time manufacturers started making ss amps dedicated for steel in the '70s, there were no tube amps that could compete in terms of clean headroom, size and weight in a combo unit. For the same clean headroom as the 200-300 watt ss steel amps, you would have to use two 100 watt tube amps, or the ridiculously heavy Super Twin. Steelers were happy to get all the clean headroom they needed in a single manageable ss combo. Today, it is possible to use a reasonable sized 50-100 watt tube amp and mike it through the PA. Or you can take something like a Super Twin and split it up into a head cabinet and a speaker cabinet. I don't think we are locked into the ss state amps anymore. And Terje does not need all that headroom anyway at the volumes he plays at.
It is interesting that non-pedal steelers still overwhelmingly prefer tube amps, usually small ones. Most of them never went for the big solid state amps. Also, six-string slide guitarists overwhelmingly prefer tube amps. These may be better models for what Terje is doing than pedal steelers.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 18 June 2005 at 02:19 PM.] |
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Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 20 Jun 2005 11:52 pm
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It is true, I don't play loud. But in a live context I've noticed that a 15 watt tube amp is not enough. Otherwise I have always liked the Fender Blues Junior and I use one in the studio where it works great.
My idea is to try out an Acoustic Image Coda amp this Monday, if they have it in the store, along with some other amps they might have (probably a G-K MB150, which really is an option although it doesn't have a reverb) and some Roland CUbes (which I happen to think are great little amps).
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If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 21 Jun 2005 3:50 am
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Terje,
Because you're geographically in Europe, have you considered trying the "AER" amps ?, they are quite stunning in clarity and volume/size ratio..
Basil |
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